The Flat Tax debate thread

@Eyrei

To immediately assume that every member of society should automatically receive every comfort in life is naive.

The IR was a time of great change. Like I said, the birth rates alone put enormous pressures on city life. It's not suprising that it took 100 years for things to become more equitable. It was the most rapid and grandest metamorphisis in human history.
 
Child Labor and
the British Industrial Revolution
Lawrence W. Reed
Everyone agrees that in the 100 years between 1750 and 1850 there took place in Great Britain profound economic changes. This was the age of the Industrial Revolution, complete with a cascade of technical innovations, a vast increase in industrial production, a renaissance of world trade, and rapid growth of urban populations.

Where historians and other observers clash is in the interpretation of these great changes. Were they "good" or "bad"? Did they represent improvement to the citizens, or did these events set them back? Perhaps no other issue within this realm has generated more intellectual heat than the one concerning the labor of children. The enemies of freedom-of capitalism-have successfully cast this matter as an irrefutable indictment of the capitalist system as it was emerging in 19th century Britain,

The many reports of poor working conditions and long hours of difficult toil make harrowing reading, to be sure. William Cooke Taylor wrote at the time about contemporary reformers who, witnessing children at work in factories, thought to themselves, "How much more delightful would have been the gambol of the free limbs on the hillside; the sight of the green mead with its spangles of buttercups and daisies; the song of the bird and the humming. of the bee. "l

Of those historians who have interpreted child labor in industrial Britain as a crime of capitalism, none have been more prominent than J. L. and Barbara Hammond. Their many works, including Lord Shaftesbury (1923), The Village Labourer (1911), The Town Labourer (1917), and The Skilled Labourer (1919) have been widely promoted as "authoritative" on the issue.

The Hammonds divided the factory children into two classes: "apprentice children" and "free labour children." It is a distinction of enormous significance, though one the authors themselves failed utterly to appreciate. Once having made the distinction, the Hammonds proceeded to treat the two classes as though no distinction between them existed at all. A deluge of false and misleading conclusions about capitalism and child labor has poured forth for years as a consequence.

Opportunity or Oppression?
"Free-labour" children were those who lived at home but worked during the days in factories at the insistence of their parents or guardians. British historian E. R Thompson, though generally critical of the factory system, nonetheless quite properly conceded that "it is perfectly true that the parents not only needed their children's earnings, but expected them to work."2
Professor Ludwig von Mises, the great Austrian economist, put it well when he noted that the generally deplorable conditions extant for centuries before the Industrial Revolution, and the low levels of productivity which created them, caused families to embrace the new opportunities the factories represented: "It is a distortion of facts to say that the factories carried off the housewives from the nurseries and the kitchens and the children from their play. These women had nothing to cook with and to feed their children. These children were destitute and starving. Their only refuge was the factory. It saved them, in the strict sense of the term, from death by starvation."3

Private factory owners could not forcibly subjugate "free-labour" children; they could not compel them to work in conditions their parents found unacceptable. The mass exodus from the socialist Continent to increasingly capitalist, industrial Britain in the first half of the 19th century strongly suggests that people did indeed find the industrial order an attractive alternative. And no credible evidence exists which argues that parents in these early capitalist days were any less caring of their offspring than those of pre-capitalist times.

The situation, however, was much different for "apprentice" children, and close examination reveals that it was these children on whom the critics were focusing when they spoke of the "evils" of capitalism's Industrial Revolution. These youngsters, it turns out, were under the direct authority and supervision not of their parents in a free labor market, but of government officials. Many were orphans; a few were victims of negligent parents or parents whose health or lack of skills kept them from earning sufficient income to care for a family. All were in the custody of "parish authorities." As the Hammonds wrote, ". . . the first mills were placed on streams, and the necessary labour was provided by the importation of cartloads of pauper children from the workhouses in the big towns. London was an important source, for since the passing of Hanway's Act in 1767 the child population in the workhouses had enormously increased, and the parish authorities were anxious to find relief from the burden of their maintenance.... To the parish authorities, encumbered with great masses of unwanted children, the new cotton mills in Lancashire, Derby, and Notts were a godsend."4

The Hammonds proceed to report the horrors of these mills with descriptions like these: "crowded with overworked children," "hotbeds of putrid fever," "monotonous toil in a hell of human cruelty," and so forth. Page after page of the Hammonds' writings-as well as those of many other anti-capitalist historians-deal in this manner with the condition of these parish apprentices. Though consigned to the control of a government authority, these children are routinely held up as victims of the "capitalist order."

Historian Robert Hessen is one observer who has taken note of this historiographical mischief and has urged others to acknowledge the error. The parish apprentice children, he writes, were "sent into virtual slavery by the parish authorities, a government body: they were deserted or orphaned pauper children who were legally under the custody of the poor-law officials in the parish, and who were bound by these officials into long terms of unpaid apprenticeship in return for a bare subsistence."5 Indeed, Hessen points out, the first Act in Britain that applied to factory children was passed to protect these very parish apprentices, not "free-labour" children.

The Role of the State
It has not been uncommon for historians, including many who lived and wrote in the 19th century, to report the travails of the apprentice children without ever realizing they were effectively indicting government, not the economic arrangement of free exchange we call capitalism. In 1857, Alfred Kydd published a two-volume work entitled The History of the Factory Movement. He speaks of "living bodies caught in the iron grip of machinery in rapid motion, and whirled in the air, bones crushed, and blood cast copiously on the floor, because of physical exhaustion." Then, in a most revealing statement, in which he refers to the children's "owners," Kydd declares that "'The factory apprentices have been sold [emphasis mine] by auction as 'bankrupt's effects.6
A surgeon by the name of Philip Gaskell made extensive observations of the physical condition of the manufacturing population in the 1830s. He published his findings in a book in 1836 entitled Artisans and Machinery. The casual reader would miss the fact that, in his revelations of ghastly conditions for children, he was referring to the parish apprentices: "That glaring mismanagement existed in numberless instances there can be no doubt; and that these unprotected creatures, thus thrown entirely into the power of the manufacturer, were overworked, often badly-fed, and worse treated. No wonder can be felt that these glaring mischiefs attracted observation, and finally, led to the passing of the Apprentice Bill, a bill intended to regulate these matters. "7

The Apprentice Bill that Gaskell mentioned was passed in 1802, the first of the much-heralded factory legislation, the very one Hessen stresses was aimed at the abuse by the parish officials. It remains that capitalism is not a system of compulsion. The lack of physical force, in fact, is what distinguishes it from pre-capitalist, feudal times. When feudalism reigned, men, women, and children were indeed "sold" at auction, forced to work long hours at arduous manual labor, and compelled to toil under whatever conditions and for whatever compensation pleased their masters. This was the system of serfdom, and the deplorable system of parish apprenticeship was a remnant of Britain's feudal past.

The emergence of capitalism was sparked by a desire of Englishmen to rid themselves of coercive economic arrangements. The free laborer increasingly supplanted the serf as capitalism blossomed. It is a gross and most unfortunate distortion of history for anyone to contend that capitalism or its industrialization was to blame for the agony of the apprentice children.

Though it is inaccurate to judge capitalism guilty of the sins of parish apprenticeship, it would also be inaccurate to assume that free-labor children worked under ideal conditions in the early days of the Industrial Revolution. By today's standards, their situation was clearly bad. Such capitalist achievements as air conditioning and high levels of productivity would, in time, substantially ameliorate it, however. The evidence in favor of capitalism is thus compellingly suggestive: From 1750 to 1850, when the population of Great Britain nearly tripled, the exclusive choice of those flocking to the country for jobs was to work for private capitalists.

The Sadler Report
A discussion of child labor in Britain would be incomplete without some reference to the famous Sadler Report. Written by a Member of Parliament in 1832 and filled with stories of brutality, degradation, and oppression against factory workers of all ages and status, it became the bible for indignant reformers well into the 20th century.
The Hammonds described it as "one of the main sources of our knowledge of the conditions of factory life at the time. Its pages bring before the reader in the vivid form of dialogue the kind of life that was led by the victims of the new system."8 Two other historians, B. L. Hutchins and A. Harrison, describe it as "one of the most valuable collections of evidence on industrial conditions that we possess. "9

W. H. Hutt, in his essay, "The Factory System of the Early Nineteenth Century," reveals that bad as things were, they were never nearly so bad as the Sadler Report would have one believe. Sadler, it turns out, had been agitating for passage of the Ten Hours' Bill, and in doing so he employed every cheap political trick in the book, including the falsification of evidence. 10 The report was part of those tactics.

Hutt quotes R. H. Greg (author of The Factory Question, 1837), who accused Sadler of giving to the world "such a mass of ex-parte statements, and of gross falsehoods and calumnies ... as probably never before found their way into any public document."11

This view is shared by no less an anti-capitalist than Friedrich Engels, partner of Karl Marx. In his book, The Condition of the Working Classes in England, Engels says this of the Sadler Report: "This is a very partisan document, which was drawn up entirely by enemies of the factory system for purely political purposes. Sadler was led astray by his passionate sympathies into making assertions of a most misleading and erroneous kind. He asked witnesses questions in such a way as to elicit answers which, although correct, nevertheless were stated in such a form as to give a wholly false impression."12

As already explained, the first of the factory legislation was an act of mercy for the enslaved apprentice children. Successive acts between 1819 and 1846, however, placed greater and greater restrictions on the employment of free-labor children. Were they necessary to correct alleged "evils of industrialization"?

The evidence strongly suggests that whatever benefits the legislation may have produced by preventing children from going to work (or raising the cost of employing them) were marginal, and probably were outweighed by the harm the laws actually caused. Gaskell admitted a short time after one of them had passed that it "caused multitudesof children to be dismissed, but it has only increased the evils it was intended to remedy, and must of necessity be repealed."13

Hutt believes that "in the case of children's labor the effects [of restrictive laws] went further than the mere loss of their work; they lost their training and, consequently, their skill as adults."14

Conditions of employment and sanitation were best, as the Factory Commission of 1833 documented, in the larger and newer factories. The owners of these larger establishments, which were more easily and frequently subject to visitation and scrutiny by inspectors, increasingly chose to dismiss children from employment rather than be subjected to elaborate, arbitrary, and ever changing rules on how they might run a factory employing youths. The result of legislative intervention was that these dismissed children, most of whom needed to work in order to survive, were forced to seek jobs in smaller, older, and more out of-the-way places where sanitation, lighting, and safety were markedly inferior.15 Those who could not find new jobs were reduced to the status of their counterparts a hundred years before, that is, to irregular and grueling agricultural labor, or worse-in the words of Mises-"infested the country as vagabonds, beggars, tramps, robbers, and prostitutes." 16

So it is that child labor was relieved of its worst attributes not by legislative fiat, but by the progressive march of an ever more productive, capitalist system. Child labor was virtually eliminated when, for the first time in history, the productivity of parents in free labor markets rose to the point that it was no longer economically necessary for children to work in order to survive. The emancipators and benefactors of children were not legislators or factory inspectors, but factory owners and financiers. Their efforts and investments in machinery led to a rise in real wages, to a growing abundance of goods at lower prices, and to an incomparable improvement in the general standard of living.

Of all the interpretations of industrial history, it would be difficult to find one more perverse than that which ascribes the suffering of children to capitalism and its Industrial Revolution. The popular critique of child labor in industrial Britain is unwarranted, misdirected propaganda. The Hammonds and others should have focused on the activities of government, not capitalists, as the source of the children's plight. It is a confusion which has unnecessarily taken a heavy toll on the case for freedom and free markets. On this issue, it is long overdue for the friends of capitalism to take the ideological and historiographical offen-sive.
 
newfangle said:
To immediately assume that every member of society should automatically receive every comfort in life is naive.
That's true, but so is assuming that the rich will provide that comfort if they aren't heavily taxed. There will never be complete equity in this world, but that doesn't mean that we cannot make it more equitable than it is today. That's the whole point of welfare and social security. It's naive to think that everyone will benefit the same and live luxuriously, but it's not naive to try to ameliorate their situations as best you can.
 
The author of that article is missing (avoiding?) the fact that just because the government 'gave' the capitalists these children as essentially slave labor, the capitalists did not exactly so 'no' to this grant on moral grounds. These are the same people who will give enough to charity to help those who are starving?
 
eyrei said:
The author of that article is missing (avoiding?) the fact that just because the government 'gave' the capitalists these children as essentially slave labor, the capitalists did not exactly so 'no' to this grant on moral grounds. These are the same people who will give enough to charity to help those who are starving?
Exactly. If you read the second-to-last paragraph of that article, you'll see that the factory financiers and owners did not refrain from employing children because it was immoral and because the children lived in squalid and unbearable conditions. Rather, they made an economic decision not to employ them because they would be subject to too much scrutiny and their parents became sufficiently productive that they did not need more labor.

Now, if you are saying that the rich, in a low tax society, would be charitable because it is in their economic interests, then I must vehemently disagree with you. Disregarding employment as a form of "charity ( :rolleyes: ), there would be no incentive for the rich to give to the poor. The rich would get richer because of the low taxes, while the poor would either stay where they were economically, or very slowly increase (assuming you still support the concept of no taxation for those below the poverty line). What is the incentive to give a starving poor person money if he/she is powerless to harm you (i.e. revolt)? Sure, it wouldn't be ethical, and some would help the poor because of that, but it would be naive to trust that an adequate amount of charity would be given by the rich.
 
I've never understood the argument that a flat tax is "fair."

For one thing, you could argue that taxes are always unfair, since they're organized theft. Even ignoring this, with a flat tax people still pay unequal amounts. Sure, it's all the same percentage, but why does that matter? Do we make a rich guy pay more for his ice cream than a poor guy? Why is the military, roads, etc. fundamentally different from ice cream? Well then let's have a poll tax! Oh no, then poor people won't afford it and they'd have to be killed or something. So much for fairness.

And since I don't see any benefit from a flat tax besides this supposed "fairness," I reject it. I support a progressive tax, and in doing so I don't feel morally inferior to flat-tax-supporters.
newfangle said:
Now, then I get the whole "you support letting people die on the street you capitalist scum dog." To which I respond, "benevolence and self-interest are not mutually exclusive. Just because someone is down, theft by the government is not justified."

Now, allow me to elaborate, since I've been involved in an ametuer project involving the relationship between taxation, and society's disregard for its poorest members.

Now, in a nearly tax free or tax free society, people would be allowed to freely contribute to and manage any number of charity organizations. If I was only contributing a small amount of my income to government, I would certainly be willing to help those in need. Surely its not in the best interests of myself (and therefore society, since I'm part of society) to let people starve to death. What if they possess some unexplored talent, waiting to be unleashed? There are a multitude of reasons to help someone in dire need, and it falls under a sub-branch of philosophy called the "Ethics of Emergency."

Conversely, in a heavily-taxed society, even the most persisently collectivist citizens will feel less inclined to help the poor, simply because an already huge proportion of their income is supposedely going to help these people. Of course this is NOT what is happening due to the nature of government beaurocracy. So basically, you have a small number of people starving on the street, and a huge number of people unwilling to help them, since these people already assume they are doing much to help them. So what is my conclusion? The very existence of public social programs undermines their primary goal.
I suspect that you're saying that all because, like any human, you deep down do care about others, simply out of emotion and empathy, but against "rational" self-interest, but being the valuer of rationality that you are, you desperately try to make the two mutually inclusive, and fail completely in my opinion.

Sure, it's true that helping your fellow man will generally bring back some sort of return, but only a very small return. A return that doesn't come close to exceeding what you gave up to help out. The reason is that the total return does not come close to going exclusively to you. If you cross paths with an ingenious impoverished person, and give him $10,000, even if the benefit of this is $15,000 from sort of clever enterprise, this $15,000 isn't going to go to you, it's going to go mainly to the genius, and the rest to other members of his society, including you, but certainly not exclusively you. You might indirectly get $10 in return.

Let me ask you this: Would you ever think of donating ALL of your money to charity (whichever charity you deem most valuable, perhaps creating your own), because in the end you'll end up with more money that you started out with? Surely not. And it's not like the mathematics change when you only donate a little.

Note that it can be very profitable for you to "help" a poor guy by hiring him for something, and making sure that that aforementioned $15,000 DOES go primarily to you, and if that's what you had in mind, then I'm really in agreement with you, except I'd certainly beg to differ with this labeling of exploitation as charity.
 
The discussion a flat tax has, of course, come up several times before here in OT. I'll re-iterate what I had brought up before (long ago, as I don't frequent here too often).

First of all, the most important point I remember coming out of such a discussion is the definition of income. If this is not simplified or hammered down, then those with significant amounts of money will always be able to show nearly $0 in actual income when, in fact, they have a couple million.

If we can define income (or, in other words, what qualifies to be taxed) to make sure the maximum amount of wealth can be taxed, then we could have a rate much lower than we see now.

The biggest argument against a flat tax system is that it is, while seeming completely and utterly fair, is essentially a regressive tax. Simply, those who only make $20,000 a year value every "extra" dollar as extremely valuable, whereas those who make $200,000 a year would not find essential every "extra" dollar. To explain it further, with a tax rate of 10%, we would find the former paying $2,000 in taxes and the latter paying $20,000 (the income of the former!) in taxes. Isn't this fair?

Well, no, because $2,000 to the guy who makes only $20 g's a year is extremely valuable to him! Anyone who wishes to have a very simple and fair tax system must take this very important lesson into consideration. (I, being one of those near the bottom of the income bracket, take this very seriously.). So, then, what would be fair while still using a flat tax type system?

The attraction of a flat tax is its simplicity and the feeling that everyone is paying the same percentage and there is absolutely no discrimination. Well, we've found this to essentially not be true. What could we add to the flat tax to make things easier for lower income folk?

I suggest a standard deduction for everyone. Yes, everyone! Why? If we are to maintain the "fairness" of such a tax system, then, what is done to one must be done to all. Let's set the standard deduction to, say, $30,000. EVERYONE takes there income (whatever that is defined to be), subtracts $30,000 and pays the flat tax on the rest.

Those making $30,000 a year or less, pay no tax. Those making $35,000 per year only pay tax on $5,000. Those making $300,000 a year pay tax on $270,000, etc.

Such a tax system applies the same rules to everyone, yet essentially creates a progressive taxation to help those at the lower end of the spectrum. Ultimately, the "fairness" of the flat tax is maintained.

I will end by saying, because I think everyone earning income should pay something in taxes, we could say that the minimum tax is $50 or some such low amount. That way, everyone is contibuting to the function of government for defense, highways, etc.
 
I've only heard two arguments against the flat tax:

It would cut tax rates - This argument can be rephrased as "Taxes aren't flat now, why change them?", or "I like large government".

The rich should pay more, they make more - This ignores the fact that, under a flat percentage tax rate, the rich would pay more.
 
cgannon64 said:
I've only heard two arguments against the flat tax:

It would cut tax rates - This argument can be rephrased as "Taxes aren't flat now, why change them?", or "I like large government".

The rich should pay more, they make more - This ignores the fact that, under a flat percentage tax rate, the rich would pay more.
What??? How do the rich pay more?! If you are going to maintain the current amount of revenue received by the government, the taxes would decrease for the highest bracket a little and increase for everyone else. If you simply want to let everyone pay only 20%, then the rich would pay less. To make the rich pay more and maintain a flat tax, everyone would have to pay 40% of their income in taxes.

I'm getting tired of this argument because it has been refuted so many times and is a well-known fact (among economists, at least) that flat taxes cannot work.

Here's a link refuting it and a sales tax.
 
Yom said:
What??? How do the rich pay more?! If you are going to maintain the current amount of revenue received by the government, the taxes would decrease for the highest bracket a little and increase for everyone else. If you simply want to let everyone pay only 20%, then the rich would pay less. To make the rich pay more and maintain a flat tax, everyone would have to pay 40% of their income in taxes.

I'm getting tired of this argument because it has been refuted so many times and is a well-known fact (among economists, at least) that flat taxes cannot work.

Here's a link refuting it and a sales tax.

I'm not talking about paying more in relation to the current tax rates, I'm talking about paying more in relation to poor people. If you tax at a percentage, and you make more, you pay more money...

Reading through the thread, I found one other argument: Society needs the money of the rich. This is false too, I think. If my understanding of being rich is correct, they invest all of their extra wealth. Even when you store money in a bank, it is invested by the bank, right? So, the money is clearly going back to society...

EDIT: So far this is what your article seems to say:

"It's impossible to replace the current federal tax code, with a single flat tax, on income or consumption, without either:
a) exploding the deficit, or
b) increasing taxes on the middle-class."

The solution: Shrink the government!!
 
cgannon64 said:
I'm not talking about paying more in relation to the current tax rates, I'm talking about paying more in relation to poor people. If you tax at a percentage, and you make more, you pay more money...

Reading through the thread, I found one other argument: Society needs the money of the rich. This is false too, I think. If my understanding of being rich is correct, they invest all of their extra wealth. Even when you store money in a bank, it is invested by the bank, right? So, the money is clearly going back to society...

EDIT: So far this is what your article seems to say:

"It's impossible to replace the current federal tax code, with a single flat tax, on income or consumption, without either:
a) exploding the deficit, or
b) increasing taxes on the middle-class."

The solution: Shrink the government!!
First of all, by implementing a flat tax, you are necessarily decreasing the percentage burden of the rich (i.e. if the top 10% pays 40% of taxes, a flat tax would decrease that 40% to a lower number). If a rich person pays $140,000 in taxes at a 35% tax rate (ignoring the fact that the tax system is a ladder for simplicity), meaning he makes $400,000 a year, then a flat tax of 30% (let's say that 30% is the tax rate required on all citizens to keep revenue the same as it is now) would mean that he would make $120,000. Now, if he paid 20% ($140,000 out of $700,000)of the income taxes collected (in a society of around 10), then now he pays ~17%, which is obviously a decrease.

Now, if the amount of revenue collected by the government is, as a whole, decreased, that doesn't mean that his share of the taxes won't decrease. He is paying a lower percentage than earlier while everyone else is paying a higher percentage, so his percentage of all income taxes must go down.

As to a decrease in government, that's your subjective view. We're talking about the viability of a flat tax holding everything else constant.

Here's another article (much longer) dealing with flat taxes. It shows how a flat tax would necessitate large tax increases on the middle class (such as taxes on homes for "imputed rent" that homeowners avoid).
 
Yom said:
As to a decrease in government, that's your subjective view. We're talking about the viability of a flat tax holding everything else constant.

I think almost everyone who advocates a flat tax wouldn't mind a smaller government either.
 
Bah. Too many responses. Let me summarize my key points.

1) I support a system of taxation where each individual gets back what they put in. This is the only "fair" system. Obviously, such a system is equivalent to no taxation whatsoever.

2) I believe that the implementation of social programs has completely smothered the desire to help people voluntarily. People pass homeless people on the street every day, confident that the government is using their money to help the misfortunate. This is NOT the case, since there are still homeless people around. Either every government on earth can't manage funds properly, or there is an inherent flaw in the system. Occam's Razor points to the latter. Note that I am NOT saying that private charity could even come close to what the government can do. I am saying that in a free society, private charities would do significantly more than they do now. My goal here is not help a bunch of homeless people. My goal is to eliminate organized theft, and at the same time, show that it is not necessary that people die on the street.

3) Also, I would like to raise the point that if the trend of progressive taxation continues, the rich will inevitably come to resent the system (moreso), and will seek to find more and more loopholes, and hide their money as best they can. If I were rich, I would do the exact same thing. I would also hope that in doing so, I would cause as much misery to the government as possible.
 
cgannon64 said:
I've only heard two arguments against the flat tax:

I think 'The rich are less affected by a progressive and higher tax' is different to 'the rich can afford it'.

One can imply 'they're rich, we can take most of their money, no big deal', and the other, 'they're rich, and less affected by the higher tax' :) Wow what an explanation - I'll leave it - suffice to say, I think the difference is important.



Fair/unfair/tax/notax/progressive tax.

It's simple fact that many people with experience in making money ;) and maybe losing it, know, once you have a million dollars, the next million is half as hard to get...

This is why rich and poor do NOT experience equal opportunity.

Intelligence and effort have less to do with the issue than one would think :rolleyes: the number of cretins I've worked with who kept on making money despite themselves :scan: compared to the brilliant and hard-working people who will never max $10million...


Anyway, and thus, a flat tax rate is :mischief: inherantly UNFAIR, as is no tax, because the 'haves' will always have it easier in either of those situations, and the 'have-nots' very much harder.


I advocate a progessive tax system (approx. 10/20/30% across income brackets) though :hmm: I've been toying with the flat tax idea, but more as a means of eliminating the convoluted tax systems, especially company 'write-offs'. So, I remain moderately open to the argument.
 
newfangle said:
If I were rich, I would do the exact same thing. I would also hope that in doing so, I would cause as much misery to the government as possible.

I consider: The greater a person's power in society, the greater their responsibility to it. As Money is another expression of power, the more money a person has, the greater their responsibility.

Taxation is a legitimate discharge of this responsibility.

Thus, if I were a rich person, which I am not ;) but have been, I would consider it.

With this responsibility in mind, if I was dissatisfied with some aspect of scoiety, I would attempt to change it, but not for the purpose of avoiding my responsibility.

I don't believe in the ultimately selfish and amoral position that appears so strong in the argument that the 'rich' should not pay more.

I consider it a matter of honor.
 
cgannon64 said:
Would investing be another?

:hmm: I think soooo, but this investment would have to be into areas of benefit to society - which is probably opening up another annoying area of argument.

Option 1. Not vaild if that investement is into a slash and burn crop rotation company. 'But this creates jobs, etc'

I would say money does not justify the means, so to speak.



But I think you're question suggests the argument as to taxation: Yes or no... :goodjob:
 
I'm pretty sure any economically sound investment "helps" society.

Slash and burn crop rotation is NOT economically sound.
 
Newfangle , cgannon , and other pepole who share my viewpoint on this : there is only oen solution to this problem . The wealthiest top 5 % to 10 % of the population ( or the largest employing corporations ) need to form a union , and threaten the current government that , if the government does not bow to their demands , it will

a)Go on strike for a few days ( 5 days , for example ) every month , pay their employees correspondingly less , and say that the government is responsible for the employees' problems ( in a democracy , bno government can afford that )

OR

b) go on permanent strike , and kill of most employment in the country , until the demands are met .





I don't think that there is any country that can stand up to this sort of display of power by the rich and the wealthy employment creators . The chances of this happening are slim , unfortunately .
 
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