The future of swordsmen

[apocalypse105]

Good to hear that firaxis listened to the community

it proparly olso had to do that indonesia had a unique swordsman unit so they wanted to make it stronger.

 

[kaspergm]

And if you don't have either Copper or Iron nearby, you might as well shoot yourself in the head, because there was no fallback unit (except Warriors, which were useless in Civ IV). In Civ V, there are fallback units that don't require resources (...) Now I agree that G&K made the resourceless units too good, to the point where you can mostly ignore the resource-requiring units.

Yes, that is the culprit here, and I'm afraid this point will still stand in BnW, even if moving back Iron a bit will help it slightly: The concept of a fallback unit is good, but when your fallback unit becomes the go-to unit, clearly something is broken.

The question still stands: Will the lower part of the tech-tree offer enough goodies to make it viable to pursue this tech path instead of bee-lining Education and just stopping at Pikemen along the way? My guess is no.

 

[CaptainUnknown]

Yes, that is the culprit here, and I'm afraid this point will still stand in BnW, even if moving back Iron a bit will help it slightly: The concept of a fallback unit is good, but when your fallback unit becomes the go-to unit, clearly something is broken.

The question still stands: Will the lower part of the tech-tree offer enough goodies to make it viable to pursue this tech path instead of bee-lining Education and just stopping at Pikemen along the way? My guess is no.

The only benefit I can see that could change the way you play is getting more promotions before swordsmen are obsolete. depending on the promotion tier you get to it may well be worth it, especially if you have a unique unit later down the path. The extra promotions may also bridge the gap against Pikes.

 

[The QC]

The main change is that civs with Swordsman/Longswordsman uniques have a better chance now. Most others will probably still go the old route.

 

[apocalypse105]

The main change is that civs with Swordsman/Longswordsman uniques have a better chance now. Most others will probably still go the old route.

If you want to early rush going to swodsman is usefull.

 

[Martinus]

So, wait, Bronze Working reveals Iron? Ugh! (conceptually, not in terms of gameplay).

I completely disagree with you. It makes perfect sense that Bronze Working (which is the first tech that, conceptually, lets you work metal) would mean people also discover other metals, such as iron - they cannot work it yet but they know it is there - so it makes sense that, at this point, you would try to discover a way to work it.

The current (pre-BNW) situation, where you discover a technology of working iron - a resource that you did not even know existed before you discovered the technology - makes much less sense, conceptually.

 

[The QC]

If you want to early rush going to swodsman is usefull.

True. Most people seem to do well enough with Composite Bowmen, though.

Another group that will benefit from this, which I initially forgot, are civs with Warrior uniques, like the Aztec. Jaguar Warriors pass on some nice promotions, which stacked with what they gain from combat, will look really nice on an early Swordsman.

The current (pre-BNW) situation, where you discover a technology of working iron - a resource that you did not even know existed before you discovered the technology - makes much less sense, conceptually.

I agree with this. Arguably, Iron should have been revealed at Mining, like some people suggested on the forum. Once people get it into their heads to look for metals in the ground, they should start noticing iron.

Mining would have helped gameplay too, but Bronze Working is good enough, as it's pretty early and gives some good benefits anyway (Barracks, cutting jungles).

 

[Twahn]

I completely disagree with you. It makes perfect sense that Bronze Working (which is the first tech that, conceptually, lets you work metal) would mean people also discover other metals, such as iron - they cannot work it yet but they know it is there - so it makes sense that, at this point, you would try to discover a way to work it.

The current (pre-BNW) situation, where you discover a technology of working iron - a resource that you did not even know existed before you discovered the technology - makes much less sense, conceptually.

Spot on.

 

[Altisma]

Neat, but Iron isn't changing the meta-competitive game. If range remains good as it is, it will be the most efficient choice still when building units.

 

[WiseGreen]

Yes, that is the culprit here, and I'm afraid this point will still stand in BnW, even if moving back Iron a bit will help it slightly: The concept of a fallback unit is good, but when your fallback unit becomes the go-to unit, clearly something is broken.

The question still stands: Will the lower part of the tech-tree offer enough goodies to make it viable to pursue this tech path instead of bee-lining Education and just stopping at Pikemen along the way? My guess is no.

Maybe the interaction between Workshops and domestic trade routes is strong enough to make beelining for metal casting a decent strategy?

 

[Furycrab]

Swordmen weren't really dominant in vanilla, Longswords were because there was a lot of ways to slingshot to it. Something they all but completely shut down in patches and G&K.

All I can say is... Finally. A rush/push that had a very reasonably high chance of failing just based on a hidden resource.

At least now everything is a bit more reasonable... Don't get Iron? Well you at least spent research getting Spears and Barracks.

 

[adwcta]

Yep, this change made too much sense, I'm kind of shocked it took so long and wasn't even in the original BNW tech tree we saw.

Now if only they would change composite bows from 11 to 10 attack.... Whatever composite bows should do, they should not outclass catapults.

 

[Matthew.]

The question still stands: Will the lower part of the tech-tree offer enough goodies to make it viable to pursue this tech path instead of bee-lining Education and just stopping at Pikemen along the way? My guess is no.

Depends on how much lower the beaker cost on ironworking. It is only one tech (assuming you already have copper) and picking it up before Civil Service may not be a big deal at all.

The real question is whether it will be worth it to continue on to Lswords before Education.

 

[MadDjinn]

One thing to think of, tech wise, is that the cost of going swords is now about the same cost as going to Philosophy (assuming you stop at writing early to get libraries).

If you choose to hard tech to IW (Mining->BW->IW) it's likely about as slow, and you get less, but still might work.

Getting to pikes before a concerted sword rush hits you is very unlikely (unless the sword rusher failed to find sources of gold).

Even Comp. Bows take longer to reach than swords now.

But the big benefit of iron at BW is that you at least have a unit that is stronger than a warrior and can fend off horse units early game if you fail to find Iron (vs. making it to IW and basically being too far behind if you fail to find any).

edit:

Depends on how much lower the beaker cost on ironworking. It is only one tech (assuming you already have copper) and picking it up before Civil Service may not be a big deal at all.

It's the same cost as Philosophy/the other techs on that line. Of which to get to CS you need at least 3 of them and a lot more techs.

 

[Furycrab]

Neat, but Iron isn't changing the meta-competitive game. If range remains good as it is, it will be the most efficient choice still when building units.

I don't know about that one. Even if you survive an early push, you'll need almost as many Composite bows (archers won't do squat to a squad of swords with a Great General and the extra 15% melee bonus) as he has swords just to not lose any walled city, and you'll probably not be able to properly expand or run trade routes.

Right now only the Iroquois can do that push with reasonable success %, but that's kinda predictable and you'll likely keep more eyes on that player. The push is something along the lines where in your initial build you get 3-5 warriors along with a few basics, you unlock honor, you use your basic units to barb hunt and scout as well as help get your next two policies. You settle aggressively in the direction of your next best friend. As soon as you get Ironworking you upgrade all your warriors at the city closest to your opponent and move out with your Great General.

Like I said, this push only really works with the Iroquois right now because you can go as soon as Ironworking is done. Now everyone will get a good amount of turns to either settle or get the iron worked, AND ironworking is cheaper as a tech...

Just saying, in multiplayer, you might not straight up kill your neighbor, but it will definitively make players who beeline Philosophy and Education a lot more honest or risk just dying in the process. It'll affect the meta for sure.

 

[Byzantine Bomb]

The Danish will certainly like this. They'll have plenty of time to secure sources of iron after locating them now.

 

[Matthew.]

It's the same cost as Philosophy/the other techs on that line. Of which to get to CS you need at least 3 of them and a lot more techs.

Thanks for the clarification. So it went from 214 to 192 standard map/speed? 22 beakers doesn't seem like a whole lot, but I suppose every bit helps.

 

[MrL567]

Thanks for the clarification. So it went from 214 to 192 standard map/speed? 22 beakers doesn't seem like a whole lot, but I suppose every bit helps.

It's not much. But iron working has less requirements then the other techs in ts area in the classical era.

 

[Tabarnak]

Neat, but Iron isn't changing the meta-competitive game. If range remains good as it is, it will be the most efficient choice still when building units.

But knowing in advance that you gonna have enough iron to make a rush is something important. I would rather have a horde of 5-6 swordmen over 5-6 CBs. You need almost all your CBs to kill 1 unit in 1 turn when 2 or maybe 3 swordmen are only needed to kill a CB.

We never face these kind of rushes because nobody tries it that's too much of a gamble. Only Hiawatha is really dangerous. In BNW we will be able to do something similar with any civs.

Mining first to hit Bronze Working with a ruin will be a nice guess to start without risking anything else

Montezuma and Impis will be quite strong...

 

[anandus]

Although I am happy that the discovery of Iron has been moved to Bronze Working, I'm not sure that I'm happy with the reduced cost of IW.
Personally I thought it was a good development for G&K to increase the IW cost, in my games I've really noticed a reducing of the Sword-zergs, which I found made gameplay a lot more interesting and and fun. I'm afraid the sword-zerg will be back again in BNW.
(Nb. I mostly play multiplayer.)