The God Concept (split off from the Outspoken Atheist thread)

[Ziggy Stardust]

And how do you explain that?

Matter is physical substance, consciousness is awareness. They are different.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Matter is physical substance, consciousness is awareness. They are different.

That is surely how things may appear from certain pov. Methaphysicaly though the line of thinkig I have presented makes more sense. In fact thats is the best explanation of reality I have bumped into so far. It doesnt make the ancients look like some bunch of nothing knowing fearful-all fools while it negates the "coming out of nothing & going to nowhere" narrative (well at least somewhat).

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That is surely how things may appear from certain pov. Methaphysicaly though the line of thinking I have presented makes more sense. In fact thats is the best explanation of reality I have bumped into so far.

If that point of view is more comfortable to you, enjoy.

It doesnt make the ancients look like some bunch of nothing knowing fearful-all fools while it negates the "coming out of nothing & going to nowhere" narrative (well at least somewhat).

My point of view also doesn't make the ancients look like some bunch of nothing knowing fearful-all fools.

 

[Birdjaguar]

@ Valka: Don't be so hard on yourself. The question of god's existence is pretty much a yes/no question; it does or does not exist without regard to how one might define such a thing. A middle ground doesn't fit very well with anyone's thinking. If the answer is "no", then for all of our history humans have been persistently delusional and vicious on the subject for some deep seated and incorrect notion. It speaks poorly of us given what we think of ourselves collectively. Our inability to rid ourselves of this false notion (which seems to grow stronger) is really quite striking.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

My point of view also doesn't make the ancients look like some bunch of nothing knowing fearful-all fools.

Well maybe its time you present it. I think I made it clear that my conception of reality is an infinite consciousness which created this world out of itself by reverting part of itself into its apparent opposite. Evolution is then slow and steady revelation of the original unlimited consciousness out of matter.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Well maybe its time you present it.

I present my point of view:
Matter and consciousness are separate and different, and
There never has been an occurrence of consciousness creating matter.

I think I made it clear that my conception of reality is an infinite consciousness which created this world out of itself by reverting part of itself into its apparent opposite. Evolution is then slow and steady revelation of the original unlimited consciousness out of matter.

Indeed, if that view makes you comfortable go for it. Not sure what you're expecting of me? To agree with it? To continue discussing it?

 

[timtofly]

Another discussion about god! Wonderful. With all this attention one would almost have to surmise that it must exist. Given the long history of "heated" god discussions (5, 6 or even 7,000 years?), the non existence of god would speak volumes about our general failure as the creatures we think of ourselves to be.

Atheist threads keep popping up, and then they get converted to God threads....

So the question is can there be thought without a neural net that is physical? Can light exist without matter?

 

[Birdjaguar]

... At no point has consciousness ever produced matter. ....

Matter is physical substance, consciousness is awareness. They are different.

What is awareness if not the product of the same quarkishness that produces tables and chairs? Are there physical components to awareness or is it made up of something else? What is that something else?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I present my point of view:
Matter and consciousness are separate and different, and
There never has been an occurrence of consciousness creating matter.


Indeed, if that view makes you comfortable go for it. Not sure what you're expecting of me? To agree with it? To continue discussing it?

Lets debate your pov for change. I am currious how can consciousness be separate from matter when it seem to me we have agreed that consciousness is in fact a product of matter. Even if you take an consciousness as an aspect of matter then they are still identical.
Now human consciousness is clearly producing brain waves and you can change these by changing your consciousness which seems to me clearly pointing out that even such limited consciousness such as human can have direct impact on matter.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Lets debate your pov for change. I am currious how can consciousness be separate from matter when it seem to me we have agreed that consciousness is in fact a product of matter. Even if you take an consciousness as an aspect of matter then they are still identical.

Matter can create consciousness, since the brain is matter. When I say "separate" I do not mean separate in cause and effect, I mean separate entities.

Do you think an electric motor consists of electricity? They are separate entities, although in cause and effect they are linked.

Now human consciousness is clearly producing brain waves and you can change these by changing your consciousness which seems to me clearly pointing out that even such limited consciousness such as human can have direct impact on matter.

The brain is producing brainwaves. Which are electric pulses. Electric pulses are not matter.

What is awareness if not the product of the same quarkishness that produces tables and chairs? Are there physical components to awareness or is it made up of something else? What is that something else?

How heavy is awareness?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

The brain is producing brainwaves. Which are electric pulses. Electric pulses are not matter.

Do you think consciousness plays any part in that?
I am not exactly sure but I think there is a complex but direct relation between matter and energy. I think the same goes for energy and consciousness.

How heavy is awareness?

Is awarness a form of reality?

 

[timtofly]

How heavy is awareness?

That would depend on how relative the thoughts contained in said awareness, and if thoughts even have value.

The whole point is humans tend to think their thoughts are all there is, and without them, the universe would not exist.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Have to run ... meanwhile: https://www.thoughtco.com/definition-of-matter-and-examples-604565

 

[Birdjaguar]

Have to run ... meanwhile: https://www.thoughtco.com/definition-of-matter-and-examples-604565

So matter only exists at the level of atom/molecules and higher? Does this puts things back to definitions? Can we define things into and out of existence?

If thoughts and heat are not matter, what are they? Energy? Something else?

We know that matter can be reshaped into energy. Is it a one way street? If thoughts are energy and I think of something that has not existed before and then I create that thought in a physical way, has energy reshaped matter?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

What is awareness if not the product of the same quarkishness that produces tables and chairs? Are there physical components to awareness or is it made up of something else? What is that something else?

Right, I'm not a brain surgeon so excuse the rudimentariness and amateurishness of the following botched explanation. Take all of this as: as far as I understand. I'm sure when a neurologist reads this there will be much rolling of eyes.

Awareness is the perception of your environment. When you touch something, the brain receives signals, and because certain parts of the brain are triggered you interpret that touch. Which parts of the brain are triggered causes you to be able to make a distinction between something soft, or grainy. When you smell something, the molecules of that something dock with receptors in the nose, which gives signals to the brain and again, depending on which parts are triggered you smell something lovely or determine that something stinks. Awareness is the collection of signals and their location in the brain.

Now not all of those triggers are processed in a way that you're aware of. The amount of information is simply too much, and through focus on one thing, you can consciously miss a lot of other things. On a subconscious level these other ignored triggers can still be recorded. And even recalled through given the right stimuli.

Now neurologists have been able to recreate these triggers and made it possible for a blind person to see, so awareness is not some mystical force. It's also not a form of energy. It's an interpretation based on which parts of the brain get the stimuli.

An analogy: when you watch your monitor, watching that monitor is the interpretation of the way electricity messes with the pixels on the screen.

Do you think consciousness plays any part in that?
I am not exactly sure but I think there is a complex but direct relation between matter and energy. I think the same goes for energy and consciousness.

There certainly is a direct relation between matter and energy. E equals MC squared. But here's the thing. Consciousness is not energy. It's the way the brain is manipulated through electric pulses.

Is awareness a form of reality?

I'm going to assume you mean observable stuff, because no one really knows what reality is. Yes, awareness can be observed, monitored and reproduced through manipulating the right areas of the brain.

That would depend on how relative the thoughts contained in said awareness, and if thoughts even have value.

No, it depends on how many protons and neutrons one unit of awareness has. I have no idea why you dragged 'value' into it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Right, I'm not a brain surgeon so excuse the rudimentariness and amateurishness of the following botched explanation. Take all of this as: as far as I understand. I'm sure when a neurologist reads this there will be much rolling of eyes.

Awareness is the perception of your environment. When you touch something, the brain receives signals, and because certain parts of the brain are triggered you interpret that touch. Which parts of the brain are triggered causes you to be able to make a distinction between something soft, or grainy. When you smell something, the molecules of that something dock with receptors in the nose, which gives signals to the brain and again, depending on which parts are triggered you smell something lovely or determine that something stinks. Awareness is the collection of signals and their location in the brain.

Now not all of those triggers are processed in a way that you're aware of. The amount of information is simply too much, and through focus on one thing, you can consciously miss a lot of other things. On a subconscious level these other ignored triggers can still be recorded. And even recalled through given the right stimuli.

Now neurologists have been able to recreate these triggers and made it possible for a blind person to see, so awareness is not some mystical force. It's also not a form of energy. It's an interpretation based on which parts of the brain get the stimuli.

An analogy: when you watch your monitor, watching that monitor is the interpretation of the way electricity messes with the pixels on the screen.


There certainly is a direct relation between matter and energy. E equals MC squared. But here's the thing. Consciousness is not energy. It's the way the brain is manipulated through electric pulses.


I'm going to assume you mean observable stuff, because no one really knows what reality is. Yes, awareness can be observed, monitored and reproduced through manipulating the right areas of the brain.

I don't disagree. What, though, are thoughts if they are not matter or energy? Awareness/consciousness would seem to be the byproduct of energy acting upon brain matter. But what is it? Does it have parts? Is it distinct. Can a non matter non energy thing be measured or are we just measuring how it affects matter and energy? Can energy transform matter?

 

[warpus]

What is computer software? Is it matter or energy?

 

[Birdjaguar]

What is computer software? Is it matter or energy?

It is human thought (energy?) manipulating matter and energy to create activity. It is a hammer and a nail.

 

[warpus]

It is human thought (energy?) manipulating matter to create activity. It is a hammer and a nail.

Computer software will exist long after the human who created it walks away, dies, etc.

My point was that computer software is an abstraction sitting on layers that sit on other layers that in the end sit on either matter or energy layers. Human thoughts are the same in that they are not exactly matter or energy but instead are an abstraction sitting on various layers overtop.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Computer software will exist long after the human who created it walks away, dies, etc.

My point was that computer software is an abstraction sitting on layers that sit on other layers that in the end sit on either matter or energy layers. Human thoughts are the same in that they are not exactly matter or energy but instead are an abstraction sitting on various layers overtop.

Software is not an abstraction. It is a thing people write. Code is a language that does very specific things. It is not abstract at all. Beauty, however, is an abstraction....

If thoughts/awareness is an abstraction and neither matter nor energy, is it real? How can a non material, non energy thing exist? If thoughts and awareness do not have an existence somewhere within the quark soup that lies under the actions of atoms and molecules, then what?