The GoP?

[Patine]

Yes, there wasn't a left candidate on the ballot but there was a clear choice between a moderate, center-left candidate and an extreme right candidate. Like I said before, a lot of people on the left look at that choice as two losing propositions rather than one proposition that would allow them to win - albeit a lot less than they'd like - and one hard losing proposition. If they sat out the election because Clinton wasn't liberal enough, then they got the worse possible outcome of that choice. The perfect was made into the enemy of the good. I'm not saying Clinton was a leftist. I'm not even saying she was a good candidate. But on all the issues we care about, she was light years ahead of Trump and by not voting, we wound up with Trump who has dragged everything to the fascist right.

Trump extreme right? I think you're flattering his sense of convictions and actual beliefs and platform in anything but his own self-promotion. In fact, I believe (a belief backed up by something said by former House Speaker John Boehner who said Trump laid out the foundations of the plan over a game of golf) that Trump entering the Republican Primaries was actually a publicity stunt to distract people from his Trump University lawsuits, sexual harassment accusations, being recently fired the "The Apprentice," and as host of the "Miss Universe Pageant," and he didn't really expect to win, and Boehner said he had actually promised Melania she'd never have to win in the White House. It seemed his runaway momentum even exceeded his own expectations, and his immense ego would let him bow out of a job he was unprepared for and, if Boehner's right, didn't even REALLY want, fully, in the first. Now, his 2016 Campaign was utter bluster, promising the Moon, pandering to the zeitgeist, and showing at numerous occasions he had no ideas, whatsoever, what he was talking about or that he even understand critical aspects being U.S. President or many current issues. He was talking out of his a$$. Enter Steve Bannon. Bannon, himself, WAS a major bigot, racism, and nascent fascist who an incendiary, fire-spitting, far-right-wing "news" site. The Alt-Right Movement, with their stupid cartoon frog, grew around Bannon's instigation, organization, and rhetoric, not Trump's directly. And Bannon was rewarded by being made chief-of-staff for the White House afterwards (until he filled out the revolving Cabinet and Executive Staff problem Trump has faced). While Trump is ONLY comparable to Hitler in certain styles, behaviours, and rhetorical mechanisms on the campaign trail, like how he appeals to utter emotion and "betrayed nationalism" and "regaining greatness," and targets the stupidest elements of his audience's psyches, but is in NO other way, other than a bad combover, like Hitler, Bannon WAS very much like Goebbels. Pence was obviously a bone thrown to social conservative - the camp of the Republican Party Trump is LEAST like or ideologically affiliated with. Pence NEVER looks happy standing beside Trump in footage doing NOTHING. Trump's Cabinet appointments do not seem like his own by knowledge or association, but as though some unknown advisor(s) are drawing up big, wide-scale lists of compiled "notable right-wing figures to consider." And then there is the flip-flopping, and, when Trump's plans get enough court, Congressional, or other opposition, he often brushes them under the carpet and moves on (like the Moslem ban, or replacing Obamacare, for instance). Trump is not extreme right - he's an extreme egotistical showman who seems to firmly believe in very little but his own self-promotion.

 

[AmazonQueen]

My first decree will be for my eternal youth.

OK Daeneys, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[MaryKB]

Worst case scenario, everyone lives out their lives in joyful harmony.

 

[Patine]

It's forums, right and left is suitably generic enough.

If the Dems are struggling to get elected (I expect good results 2020) what's the point of mentioning Jill Stein and the greens on around .5 or 1% of the vote.

In NZ we have two left wing parties that matter. There's a heap more but they're irrelevant as you pay $500 bucks and get a few friends and family to register and you to can have your own party.

Some if the parties are also outright satire. I live in a country where they had enough people register their religion as Jedi for ****s n giggles.

We had the McGillicardy Serious party and a mystic yoga party in 1996 whose political ads involved riding bouncy balls.

But politics is not generic, and it's not binary. Nothing measured or studied by any of the social sciences actually is. And thinking in such, and stubbornly and counter-productively pushing such a simplistic idea, only distorts the whole scheme of things and every issue, and leads only to harm, wrong-headedness, and a foolish view of things.

 

[Zardnaar]

But politics is not generic, and it's not binary. Nothing measured or studied by any of the social sciences actually is. And thinking in such, and stubbornly and counter-productively pushing such a simplistic idea, only distorts the whole scheme of things and every issue, and leads only to harm, wrong-headedness, and a foolish view of things.

Technically you're right but it's forums not a politics course at uni.

 

[Patine]

Technically you're right but it's forums not a politics course at uni.

But you're assuming EVERYONE on these forums is on board on a dumbed-down, unrealistically simplified, binary political scheme and is going to talk about such things on level, or be willing to apply such counter-productive discussion full credence and respect as comprehensive and viable political ideals. I do not HAVE to accept to Neo-Manichaean, black-and-white political viewpoint as valid, and respond to it as though it were the way socio-political affairs, and suppress my own knowledge on the issue. Yes, this is a forum, not university, but it also not kindergarten or a special ed class.

 

[AmazonQueen]

But you're assuming EVERYONE on these forums is on board on a dumbed-down, unrealistically simplified, binary political scheme and is going to talk about such things on level, or be willing to apply such counter-productive discussion full credence and respect as comprehensive and viable political ideals. I do not HAVE to accept to Neo-Manichaean, black-and-white political viewpoint as valid, and respond to it as though it were the way socio-political affairs, and suppress my own knowledge on the issue. Yes, this is a forum, not university, but it also not kindergarten or a special ed class.

No but American politics particularly is based on forcing you to make a b&w choice between Republicans and Democrats.
Even if you are aware as most of us here are that things aren't that simple on election day in the US they are.

 

[Zardnaar]

But you're assuming EVERYONE on these forums is on board on a dumbed-down, unrealistically simplified, binary political scheme and is going to talk about such things on level, or be willing to apply such counter-productive discussion full credence and respect as comprehensive and viable political ideals. I do not HAVE to accept to Neo-Manichaean, black-and-white political viewpoint as valid, and respond to it as though it were the way socio-political affairs, and suppress my own knowledge on the issue. Yes, this is a forum, not university, but it also not kindergarten or a special ed class.

In the US it is binary, even in NZ with proportional representation it's binary as well. You're voting for Labour or National lead coalition.

5 or 6% will vote for the Greens , a similar % for a centrist party. Everything else doesn't really matter.

 

[Patine]

No but American politics particularly is based on forcing you to make a b&w choice between Republicans and Democrats.
Even if you are aware as most of us here are that things aren't that simple on election day in the US they are.

In the US it is binary, even in NZ with proportional representation it's binary as well. You're voting for Labour or National lead coalition.

5 or 6% will vote for the Greens , a similar % for a centrist party. Everything else doesn't really matter.

Actually, even in the U.S., they don't magically become that simple - it's merely a hoodwink and a propaganda scam - a distractionary tactic, if you will - to protect the overreaching and corrupt grip of the Duopoly to maintain control of the country by rigging elections and other basically criminal malpheasance. Saying politics magically becomes binary in the U.S. is like saying it magically becomes unitary in the PRC or North Korea, or doesn't even exist in Saudi Arabia - when it's obvious those are lies and misinformation for ulterior motives of crooked authority figures, too.

 

[Zardnaar]

Actually, even in the U.S., they don't magically become that simple - it's merely a hoodwink and a propaganda scam - a distractionary tactic, if you will - to protect the overreaching and corrupt grip of the Duopoly to maintain control of the country by rigging elections and other basically criminal malpheasance. Saying politics magically becomes binary in the U.S. is like saying it magically becomes unitary in the PRC or North Korea, or doesn't even exist in Saudi Arabia - when it's obvious those are lies and misinformation for ulterior motives of crooked authority figures, too.

Some of us live in reality. Life's a crap sandwich and every day is lunchtime.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Actually, even in the U.S., they don't magically become that simple - it's merely a hoodwink and a propaganda scam - a distractionary tactic, if you will - to protect the overreaching and corrupt grip of the Duopoly to maintain control of the country by rigging elections and other basically criminal malpheasance. Saying politics magically becomes binary in the U.S. is like saying it magically becomes unitary in the PRC or North Korea, or doesn't even exist in Saudi Arabia - when it's obvious those are lies and misinformation for ulterior motives of crooked authority figures, too.

We aren't saying its right or a particularly good system but it is the system US voters have to deal with.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Some of us live in reality. Life's a crap sandwich and every day is lunchtime.

We aren't saying its right or a particularly good system but it is the system US voters have to deal with.

Ye gods, me and Zardnar saying basically the same thing, and Cloudstrife liking one of the posts

 

[Patine]

Ye gods, me and Zardnar saying basically the same thing, and Cloudstrife liking one of the posts

Some of us live in reality. Life's a crap sandwich and every day is lunchtime.

I guess that depends on how you use the word "reality." You both seem to be using it in terms of a resigned acceptance to a powerful group of people telling you how things are and what to believe - and who are "valid" leaders, and who just "cannot lead, because the machine rejected them, and thus they, and their points are invalid." Well, paradigm metaphysics and consentual reality theory are bunk! Reality doesn't magically change because Big Brother says, and it doesn't change because a lot of people are brainwashed or beaten into believing utter garbage to served Big Brother's interests alone. Time to think outside the box - because the box is doing NOTHING for you!

 

[Zardnaar]

I guess that depends on how you use the word "reality." You both seem to be using it in terms of a resigned acceptance to a powerful group of people telling you how things are and what to believe - and who are "valid" leaders, and who just "cannot lead, because the machine rejected them, and thus they, and their points are invalid." Well, paradigm metaphysics and consentual reality theory are bunk! Reality doesn't magically change because Big Brother says, and it doesn't change because a lot of people are brainwashed or beaten into believing utter garbage to served Big Brother's interests alone. Time to think outside the box - because the box is doing NOTHING for you!

I actually do live in one if the least corrupt politically stable countries in the world.

People still gravitate towards the two main parties. Most people aren't ideologue's.

They have both had their support fall to low 20%s.

 

[Patine]

I actually do live in one if the least corrupt politically stable countries in the world.

People still gravitate towards the two main parties. Most people aren't ideologue's.

They have both had their support fall to low 20%s.

Voting for the same old parties at the ballot box is not going to get most the real changes, solutions, improvements, and leaders they want and need. It's just going to get them screwed over, again, for another term.

 

[Zardnaar]

Voting for the same old parties at the ballot box is not going to get most the real changes, solutions, improvements, and leaders they want and need. It's just going to get them screwed over, again, for another term.

It's what the people want.
Current government tried but they didn't get enough votes.

 

[Patine]

It's what the people want.
Current government tried but they didn't get enough votes.

Current government? Which current government are you referring to that isn't run by "the same old parties," I was talking about that tried to oppose them and is distinct from them?

 

[Zardnaar]

Current government? Which current government are you referring to that isn't run by "the same old parties," I was talking about that tried to oppose them and is distinct from them?

The current NZ Labour party. They wanted to build a heap of houses and looked at putting tax up.

They got less votes than National which didn't even admit there was a housing crisis.

The didn't have the votes to put up tax, and the housing initiative was a failure.

So they're going into 2020 election not achieving much but things didn't get much worse relative to National winning.

I don't think it will cost them as people understand the reality of the situation and the right have their own problems (resignations, unpopular leaders, post power comedown, declining poll ratings, internal discontent, lack of coalition partners).

If the Dems win 2020 it's only the start. Apart from a lack of weekly outrage at Trump being stupid your day to day life won't change to much. It will take 20 odd years to change much assuming you can push your policies.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Voting for the same old parties at the ballot box is not going to get most the real changes, solutions, improvements, and leaders they want and need. It's just going to get them screwed over, again, for another term.

So how do we change that?

 

[Zardnaar]

So how do we change that?

Revolution power to the prole.... erm nevermind.