[BNW] The Great Wall - what to do?

[AJL47]

I think we all pretty much agree that if you're going for a DomV, the idea is to capture Wonders and not build them, but what about the GW?

The GW is a thorn in my side. I play Immortal level, and too many times I've been conquering the first couple of civs only to then find out that Russia (or some other DomV powerhouse) has the GW and I have two or no horses. I have found that even with advanced units (compared to the AI civ), the AI will make short work of them if they can only move 1 hex/turn.

So, my question is: if you have really good production from the beginning, should you go for the GW?

I know that means slowing down building your army and your first conquering rush, but sometimes a big army doesn't do much if it consists of CBs and spearmen/pikemen and you're going against the GW with an AI that has several hexes around their capital.
Obviously, you can use GGs to hack into the wall if you have them. But when the AI has decent space and you use your GG to gain space, you lose the ability to pillage tiles and heal units (thus withstanding attacks better) while you get your other slow moving troops into place.

My experience on the Immortal level is that the AI with the GW - when they are not my immediate neighbour - sits and racks up science, since no-one can successfully attack them, and by the time you reach them, it's really too late and you don't have a chance.

Does anyone out there have an opinion about buildng the Wall or a strategy for dealing with it - other than using GGs to buy space - when you don't have many/any horses?

Thanks in advance

 

[Blatc]

I don't have experience on immortal, but advice from deity: adjust which civ you attack next partly based on Great Wall, availability of extra GG to steal land, experience of your ranged units, and timing of upgrades (i.e. Machinery). So, you could target the GW civ when you have one or more of the following going for you:
-immediately after upgrading to Xbows
-vulnerable expo within range to make 1 GG steal useful
-multiple ranged units with +1 range
-opportunity to get other civs to DoW them and/or CS allies nearby that would help (especially if damaged units will draw the city fire)
Often, ranged units with +1 range and horse-based melee are sufficient, if you have a strong DomV going.

 

[mbbcam]

If you plan to move up to Deity, it would probaably be best to learn ways of dealing with the Great Wall rather than building it, because on Deity your chances of building it are about nil. The only Great Wonder I've ever built on Deity was the Pyramids, and I've sometimes seen it completed by an AI on the same turn I was going to get it.

I don't think I can really add much to what Blatc wrote, except have a lot of units. And make sure you scout really, really well. On Pangaea, three scouts seems to be pretty standard, and I've seen expert players build more. You shouldn't be coming across the Great Wall unexpectedly. You should know where it is, and make a plan that takes it into account, perhaps modifying your overall strategy to accommodate where it is, and who has got it. A powerful warmongering Civ with unique units and the GW is going to be a challenge. You might have to wait until artllery or flight, depending on the terrain. Certainly, don't neglect diplomacy (like I usually do!) Support from CSs or AIs can make a lot of difference.

Oh, and you mention having no horses. On a map provided by the game, you might not have that resource, of course. One reason why I play with Acken's or Hellblazer's maps is that they have an option for Strategic Balance, which means that you are guaranteed to have Strategic Resources somewhere in your territory. It removes some of the frustration involved in the game if you know you are not going to tech all the way to flight and then not be able to build aircraft because you don't have the resources (though peddroelm showed that you could conquer them instead -- but was a very good player).

 

[THEWORLDRULER]

I recently attacked India who had the GW, along with just about every other wonder. I was just wrapping up Persia, my first conquest, when I noticed the warmongering Ottomans were lining up their soldiers on India's border. Persia would have to wait. Fight the Ottomans or take India for myself.

Delhi had a 35 defensive strength. It was on plains and desert but with water and three other cities nearby...units would be lost. I lined up my CoD, 2 deep and 8 wide, my conquest in Persia had sustained a large roving army, I would have to put 2 units on their flank while others would distract Mumbai.

I declared war, annihilated their units and proceeded to march. I left space for my pikemen and swordsmen to immediately surround the city while my Keshiks would be 1 tile away. Many turns later with only a handful of losses I took Delhi and Mumbai in the same turn. Sulieman of the Ottomans was steaming; I had taken his prize. Made my peace with Gandi, he was henceforth ineffective. My footsoilders, pikemen a few archers, and swordsmen made quick work of Suliemans army as my Keshik raced across the continent to capture Istanbul.

In short, capture and retain cities with horses, those cities can also build Circus, which gives more happiness, making sure your conquering doesn't need to be stalled.

 

[AJL47]

Thanks to everyone for your comments.
I think one of my problems is that I attack the Wall too early sometimes for the tech I have because I worry that the AI with the Wall will get too far ahead while I'm preparing, but waiting for artillery might be better in some cases.
I take your points about scouting and not being able to build the Wall in deity.
Before getting any replies to this post, I started a game and landed a capital with good production and marble, so I did actually build the Wall. I was glad I did because Assyria attacked early on (typical!) with a huge army. I would have been dead meat without the Wall. Instead, I killed almost all his units with my smaller army before strolling over to take his capital.
Still, in my next game I won't build it and will hope for horses!
(mbbcam, I don't know anything about mods and playing other people's maps. Are they for Mac too? Do you just download them? Free?)

 

[mbbcam]

@AJL47 -- I play on a Mac

The Hellblazer maps can be found here (for free):

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KiFTUkF8zxbRdN_AmQ-jIwdUAjnriO2wYNGBuqphcCM/edit

Go to the bottom of the instructions for the Mac download link.

Things are a bit more complicated for the Acken maps (also free), in that you need to download the mod, then delete most of the folders inside it, leaving only the folder that contains the maps. (The whole mod doesn't work with Mac.) The download link for the Dropbox version can be found here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-for-singleplayer-and-ai-improvements.550671/

Somewhere on the thread you should find precise instructions on how to use the maps alone. If you have the Steam version of the game, you should have inside your Documents folder a folder called Aspyr, inside of which is Sid Meier's Cvilization 5. Inside that is a folder called MODS, into which you put the complete folder Acken's Minimalistic Balance (v 8). (The path will be a little different for the Mac App Store version.) Delete everything inside that folder apart from the folder Miscelenaous (sic) and the file Acken's Minimalistic Balance (v 8).modinfo.

When you start a game, click on the mods button, then select the mods you want to use.

There are loads of mods available on the Civfanatics site, and also in the Steam Workshop.

 

[AJL47]

@mbbcam
That's awesome. Thanks for the info.
Sounds a like a whole new Civ world will open up for me. Also sounds dangerous - I see many playing hours ahead..