The Grognards

[Yoda Power]

Originally posted by ozymandias
-- Have fun!

-Oz

I will

properly not actually, but thats another story......

 

[Elsilhe]

Hello Grognards!

I contacted loulong last night and asked him if you already have a map for your mod. I asked because there would be no sense of doing a brand new, since I already have one from the area you thought would be good to be covered.

So here it is. Map size is 200x200. The brown area on the map is called 'Terra Incognita' in my mod, impassable by all units, but in the map I'm about to send it's simply flood plains as I didn't change the rules. I thought it would be realistic to have such area (TI), as they were not explored before 1900's (except that of Russia, maybe, don't know for sure).

And here's the preview file. loulong warned me about your criticism, but don't worry, I think I can handle it By the way, before you say anything about African size, it is a little bit smaller because world is round, you know, and the viewpoint is focused on Europe. Phew. But send all correction comments so I know what to do, if this map is acceptable anyway.

Preview map

edit: The map is not quite finished, as there are no seas and oceans yet. But that's not a big job to do.

 

[Steph]

The map seems to be nice, but we don't need the bottom part, and the west part (America) could be used only in some scenario.

 

[Yoda Power]

Its a nice map, but I dont really think we can use it. Its too big, and have to many areas that we dont need.

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by LouLong
mrtn asked how the supply depot (replacing the radar tower) should look like. Any ideas ? Wagons ? fortified camp ?

Oh, anything would do.
May I suggest something like a couple of small triangular grey tents, one larger square brown tent, and a couple of piles of barrels & boxes (and, if there is room, maybe a small wagon).
A flagpole with a banner would also look nice, and make it stand out a bit.

In the mean time, I wonder if I could interest anybody in a "Worker Supply Wagon" unit....

Suggested stats: exactly the same as an ancient worker, with a move of 1.
(I'm afraid that I cannot find a way of making him climb into & out of the wagon, so he 'jumps' a bit from one animation to another)

 

[Yoda Power]

Hey Kryten thats beutifull, though does this means you will complete it too? Within a near future

 

[Kryten]

You know me too well master Yoda.

Yes, I'll have it ready in a day or two.

Oh, and I have a further suggestion for the 'Supply Depots/Dumps'.....
.....can I assume that the Civ3 Fortresses will be changed into something more 'Vauban-like'? If so, then it might be a good idea if the 'Supply Depot/Dumps' were made a tab smaller than these, so that they can fit INSIDE a Vauban Fort.
Then we can have fortified supply dumps, or alternatively, supplied fortresses.

 

[Yoda Power]

BTW the indutrial fort in civ3 is Vauban-style I think.

 

[Ozymandias]

Gentlemen,

I know we're attempting for 1 event / year for the years 1795-1820. I've nearly managed this by "doubling up" some years (e.g., there are the "years" 1804a and 1804b, whuich obviates the "need" for 1806). With the events etc. that Steph and I have worked out, this only leaves 1819 and 1820 as requiring ... soemthing ... Not much actually happened poltiically in the post-Napoleonic exhaustion (Serbia rebelled from the Ottomans in 1817; the Greeks likewise, with Great Power intervention, in 1821); the next "real" tech AFAIK would be the railroad ca. 1822.

Nevertheless, here goes --

I. KEY FOR YEARLY ADVANCES:

“=” Improvement; WONDER
“+” Worker task
“#” Government type
“%” Event-type ability (e.g., “Trade Embargo”)
“&” New unit type


II. Era=None techs:

FEUDAL SOCIETY
# “Monarchy”

BOURGEOIS SOCIETY
# “Constitutional Monarchy”

REVOLUTIONARY REPUBLIC
# “Revolutionary Republic”
& “Hot Air Balloon”


III. Pre-existing WONDERS:

= “DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS” (French) (= “Heroic Epic”?)
= “ECOLE POLYTECHNIQUE” (French)


IV. TECH “TREE”

1795: NATIONALISM

1796: MILITARY INVENTION

1797: LEVEE-EN-MASSE / CONSCRIPTION
& “Conscript infantry”; “Reserve Infantry” (Landwehr, etc.)

1798: WARTIME INCOME TAX
= “Bank”?

1799: EGYPTIAN EXPEDITION
= "HIEROGLYPHS TRANSLATED" (requires “Rosetta Stone” unique resource)
1800: INTERCHANGEABLE PARTS

1801: BANK OF FRANCE FOUNDED
= "CENTRAL BANK” (5% Shields - Gold flag?)

1802: MILITARY STAFF COLLEGE
= “ST. CYR”

1803: SHRAPNEL SHELL

1804a: CIVIL CODE / CIVIL ENGINEERING

1804b: LOUISIANA PURCHASE

1805a: CONGREVE ROCKETS

1805b: MORPHINE
= “Hospital”?

1806 n/a; = “1804b”

1807a: GREAT BRITAIN PROHIBITS SLAVE TRADE.
= EMANCIPATION

1807b: STREET GASLIGHTS
= "Police Station"

1808: IRON ANCHOR-CHAINS
% “Trade Embargo”

1809: n/a; = “1805b”

1810: CANNED FOOD

1811: LUDDITE REBELLION

1812a: ANGLO-AMERICAN WAR

1812b: STEAM-POWERED SHIPS
= “FIRST TRANS-ATLANTIC STEAMSHIP CROSSING” (actually by The USS Savannah in 1818)

1812c: BEET SUGAR REFINED

1814: STEAM-POWERED PRINTING PRESS

1815: STEAM-POWERED WARSHIPS

1816: MAIN MANPOWER POOL DEPLETED

1818: n/a; = “1807b”

1819: ???

1820: ???


-- Over to you, Yoda! (post-holiday, of course! )

Best,

Oz

 

[Yoda Power]

My com crashed, and still is so I havent been here for awhile.

Now why is this thread not active? Has everyone disappeared or something?

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Yoda Power
My com crashed, and still is so I havent been here for awhile.

Now why is this thread not active? Has everyone disappeared or something?

Welcome back! How was your holiday?

-- I think we've been (i) waiting for you to take the next step with the tech tree and (ii) perhaps waiting and holding our collective breath to see what Conquests has to offer (now supposedly shipping ca. November 4th here in the States).

... Oh and Steph's been happily preoccupied ...

Abraxas,

Oz

 

[LouLong]

Sorry for the "dead thread" impresion.

As far as I am concerned :

- virus pbs (computer)
- much busier real life (have to stay in Paris 3 days of the week)
- waiting (eagerly) to see some C3C new stuff (and what they can do for the scenario)
- working on units (BTW statusperfect has done the Potuguese infantry).
- am still looking for the perfect map to do (and I still hope Steph will start working on really important products (no size limits for the bmp to bic converter) rather than wasting time with his children ).
But the project is not dead (AFAIC anyway), still it is a long-term project so I don't want to rush anything.

 

[Steph]

Originally posted by LouLong
- am still looking for the perfect map to do (and I still hope Steph will start working on really important products (no size limits for the bmp to bic converter) rather than wasting time with his children ).

Don't hope to much. It's far down my TODO list. Very far... So far it isn't on the list...

 

[statusperfect]

Thomas Hancock
Thomas Hancock was an English inventor who founded the British rubber industry. Hancock invented the masticator, a machine that shredded rubber scraps, allowing rubber to be recycled after being formed into blocks or rolled into sheets.

In 1820, Thomas Hancock patented elastic fastenings for gloves, suspenders, shoes and stockings. In the process of creating the first elastic fabrics, Hancock found himself wasting considerable rubber. He invented the masticator to help conserve rubber.

Hancock kept notes during the process of invention. He made the following comments: "pieces with fresh cut edges would perfectly unite; but the outer surface, which had been exposed, would not unite... it occurred to me that if minced up very small the amount of fresh-cut surface would be greatly increased and by heat and pressure might possibly unite sufficiently for some purposes".

Hancock initially did not patented his machine, instead he gave it the deceptive name of "pickle" so that no one would know what it was.

The first masticator was a wooden machine that used a hollow cylinder studded with teeth - inside the cylinder was a studded core that was hand cranked. In 1821, Hancock joined forces with the Scottish chemist and inventor of waterproof fabrics, Charles Macintosh. Together they produced macintosh coats, or mackintoshes. The wooden masticator turned into a steam-driven metal machine, used to supple the Macintosh factory with masticated rubber.

In 1837, Thomas Hancock finally patented the masticator, when Macintosh's water-proofing patent was being challenged.

In the pre-Goodyear and pre-vulcanization age of rubber age, the masticated rubber that Hancock invented was used for pneumatic cushions, mattresses, pillows and bellows, hose, tubing, solid tires, shoes, packing and springs. It was used everywhere. Hancock became the largest manufacturer of rubber goods in the world.

 

[Yoda Power]

Ok so we are waiting for C3C, no prob

btw im back online from now(I hope)

 

[privatehudson]

I’d like to suggest some of the following ways of adapting Napoleonic tactics into civ3. Not actually read the whole thread yet, just transferring this from the history forum to here

The Corps System: Napoleon made early and constant use of forming his armies into corps, which represented a miniature army in it’s own right, combining the strengths and weaknesses of all units within. Though out of scale as I would imagine the Civ3 version on larger maps to have units representing regiments or battalions (therefore civ “armies” being little more than divisions or brigades) my recommendation to represent this is to give the French a Military Academy from the beginning, free. Others may build it in the normal fashion, but as the French were alone for most of the war in adopting this type of system, then they should get the advantages this brings.

Army limits: In the reality of this period, Napoleonic armies were small, this was prior to the age of mass conscription it should be remembered. Though Napoleon’s army of the Russian campaign is often cited as an example of mass armies (it was 500,000+ strong after all) it is to be remembered that something close to ½ of this was not even from France! Though probably 250,000+ were serving in Spain (mostly French) and probably 1,000,000+ were reserves across Europe, this was rare in the European armies of the time. Britain never fielded more than 125,000 troops in a campaign army of the time, not even with Portugese and Spanish and German allies.

Because of this I would recommend making it harder to produce new units, if not extremely hard. This represents two things, firstly the general trouble nations had with recruitment at the time, and also represents the way that commanders like Wellington were forced to protect what precious little troops they actually had. I would suggest making it even harder to rebuild elite formations such as the Guards (of all armies) as this would again produce the effect of each player protecting such units rather than flinging Napoleon’s guard into combat in every battle. (more on this later)

There were rare occasions on which mass drafts occurred, namely in Napoleon’s army in the wake of the 1812 disaster, or during the hundred days or the French revolutionary troops, or in the Prussian army through the use of Landwehr during the 1813, 1814 and 1815 campaigns, BUT this can be accurately portrayed through the drafting system. The troops raised in all these examples were quite inferior to the standard for the army in previous times

 

[Steph]

Your ideas are interesting. However, even if the global size of armies was relatively constant (in terms of number of regiments), the casualties were heavy. So it means we would need a way to replenish units. This means battlefield medicine, but then the Russia campaign is unlikely to happen that way.
Beside, remember that a regiment was seldom "destroyed". It was dispersed during the battle becase of losses, routed troups, etc, but then the regiment was "reborn". As in civ III a unit cannot rout, it is destroyed. So the only way to revive the unit would be create a new one.

But I agree we would need a way to limit the size of army.

Perhaps we could make city improvements and wonders cost nothing (I don't think they are that important for the mod), so the cost would be only upkeep, and try to change the maintenance cost to match cities?

 

[privatehudson]

I just feel it's more accurate to do it that way. Armies of this time had severe limits on recruitment, even France had trouble and Napoleon more than once had to mass draft troops to replace losses, and the quality would be closer to conscript than Vetran. Trained formations were hard to come by, making it too easy doesn't exactly sit historically, even if it might for game purposes a better game. Reform it may do, but each time the standard dropped again, the units formed for the 1812 campaign were numerically the same as those fighting in the 1805 campaign, but by that stage were very much inferior in quality to those of 1805.

Whilst reforming after routing is true, could that not be done by retreating the unit? Forgive me if some of the suggestions seem silly games wise, I don't play civ3 as often as I'd like. Unfortunately there's no exact way to limit the army sizes without consent of the players I guess....

Also, one thing I think it will represent is the effect a serious defeat in battle causes. Prussia's defeat in 1806 took her the best part of 6 years to recover from, Austria took 4 years to recover from Austerlitz and so on. With excpetions such as Russia and France, it was rare for armies, once serious losses were inflicted to bounce back, they needed time to reform, rebuild and so on.

 

[Steph]

It cannot be done with retreat, because an army can retreat only if it has 2 movement point, and the other 1 MP.
So there's no way to give infantry the possibility to retreat.

I think the cost should vary from civ to civ, to reflect quality / size of army.

England should have troops which are long to build, so it should try to keep initial troops.
Early Prussian army should be very expensive, but then it should be cheaper -> if the Prussian army is destroyed, then it wille take time to recover, except if the Prussian army has been reformed and cheap landweher can be recruited.
France should have relatively cheap army, because Napoloen was quite good to raise new armies.
But as it would give a quality drop, I would suggest two versions of French troop : inexpensive lower quality, expensive normal quality.
And I agree, for all armies guard / elite units should be very expensive.

 

[privatehudson]

It cannot be done with retreat, because an army can retreat only if it has 2 movement point, and the other 1 MP.

Well that just plain sucks Silly game need changing

The rest, yes I agree with some of it, also I think that Russia should have relatively cheap formations, cheaper than the British anyway. Also they raised militia during the 1812 campaign, so should they have the option of drafting/cheaper but inferior units from then on also?

The two unit french infantry sounds good as well as it gives the opportunity to represent french ability to draw on conscription without bringing in mass vetran fusiliers

Another thing to consider is Cavalry. Though Napoleon did manage to raise armies fast, it's true, the main problem he had was Horses. It could be argued a large part of the reasoning behind his defeat in the 1813 campaign was down to a lack of cavalry. Though it's probably already been considered, it wouldn't be right to allow infinite numbers of cavalry formations and/or cavalry replacements. These were expensive units, costing many times more than a standard infantry unit to both recruit and maintain. I would think this should be represented by a higher than normal cost for these units to represent the difficulty in raising them.