The Hall of Players

[Seraiel]

I just saw, that bcool went for Mining Inc. before Sushi in his 1570 AD Spacerace on Small / Epic. He had only very few cities in that game, so the 1570 AD finish means he must have played exceptionally well with what he had, could it be that Mining Inc. first is the way to go? What is even the reasoning behind going Sushi first?

Discuss.

 

[Pangaea]

Did a test. Started with 14 AIs, which had a limit of 51%, same as with 17 AIs. Filled up the scoreboard with colonies, and it remained on 51% until the 18 slots were used up. Then it went like this:

Original AIs dead	Dom limit
--------------------------------
 1			51%
 2			52%
 3			54%
 4			56%
 5			58%
 6			60%
 7			62%
 8			64%
 9			66%
10			68%
11			70%
12			72%
13			74%
14			76%

So we need to kill off a few original AIs first and replace them with others, but once you see the change to 52%, it should increase with 2% for each new dead original civ. To get 76%, one colony must break free (an AI creates it and you kill him/her) so you can kill the last original civ without triggering conquest.

Less sure if this leads to a faster finish in space races (it might, but killing off all AIs takes time too), but in high score games this will of course be a game changer.

As an aside; didn't know you could create colonies without Feudalism, but theoretically you can right from the start, once you have some off land cities.

 

[Pangaea]

I just saw, that bcool went for Mining Inc. before Sushi in his 1570 AD Spacerace on Small / Epic. He had only very few cities in that game, so the 1570 AD finish means he must have played exceptionally well with what he had, could it be that Mining Inc. first is the way to go? What is even the reasoning behind going Sushi first?

Discuss.

I've gone Mining Inc first several times and had good success with that. Much easier to 1-turn executives without whipping, and building Wealth is more effective. But I was repeatedly told that Sushi first is best, so did that in the Gauntlet game. Paying for Sushi is hellishly tricky without turning off research, but it does lead to fast (re-)growth, and more specialists earlier.

What is best? Don't know tbh, but Mining is possible sooner. You do need an early GE, however, which is down to luck.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Did a test. Started with 14 AIs, which had a limit of 51%, same as with 17 AIs. Filled up the scoreboard with colonies, and it remained on 51% until the 18 slots were used up. Then it went like this:

Original AIs dead	Dom limit
--------------------------------
 1			51%
 2			52%
 3			54%
 4			56%
 5			58%
 6			60%
 7			62%
 8			64%
 9			66%
10			68%
11			70%
12			72%
13			74%
14			76%

So we need to kill off a few original AIs first and replace them with others, but once you see the change to 52%, it should increase with 2% for each new dead original civ.

Interesting that you started with 14, I had assumed you had to start with the max AIs but you're right that doesn't matter. Also interesting you don't need Feudalism! Application is limited as you say thankfully.

 

[Seraiel]

What a difference Mansa makes...

I have to start over with my attempt at beating bcool's 1570 AD Small Epic Spacerace. Not only had I ridiculous losses in the wars, like five consecutive 85% units twice, but what seems to make the major difference is, that Mansa got boxed in with only having one city. I compared my game to bcool's and to my own 1580 AD Large / Epic Spacerace, both are technologically far more advanced, apart from bcool having more cities. I'm really struggling, because I already invested a lot of time in my game, and it doesn't happen often that I don't get a #1 entry when playing with competetive settings / with a competetive civ.

 

[Seraiel]

My overall experience I got from playing the B&S mapscript btw. was, that the AIs had far less for trade, so it was impossible to really take advantage of the research bonus that comes by the intercontinental TRs. The AIs also settled the islands extremely early, Gandhi i. e. had 18 cities at 835 AD, and I believe not even 1/3 was on the continent. These both make the Terra mapscript far more desirable than it seems in theory imo, leaving Terra mainly with the big advantage of having more and better land. The only real advantages I see for B&S are that founding colonies is easier (unnecessary on small maps) and that the Sushi is stronger, though it's imo very hard to aquire enough resources to trade for all of the seafood, because oneself will be smaller while the AIs will be bigger.

 

[Pangaea]

Mansa is puny in my game too, which reminds me of a comment by WT in a previous thread: "Your Mansa is hurting you". Getting a good Mansa is a big deal. When he's behind the others... kind of pointless alive.

I've been thinking some more about the Steel decision, and will Lib it I reckon. Hope it won't turn into a mistake

Given the deficit it will take almost 20 turns to slow tech it after Libbing Bio (tho better farms will help). By my count there are ~80 Buddhist cities. If I'm lucky and the city retains the market, that is ~100 per turn. I also nneed to mass-whip some courthouses, which should save another 100 gpt.

A world war just kicked after a couple bribes, so the situation is ripe for cannon whipping and acting fast. Delhi is size 16 atm, so will take a long while to get out of resistance too.



As for B&S, at around 1AD, the AI have settled quite a few islands, but haven't gone overboard yet, so to speak This isn't Deity, though, which is a big difference. One of the big advantages on Terra is the new world, free Astro and endless forests for spaceparts chopping. That's trickier on B&S, though possible on the big maps (I have a forest area I'll save). Sushi is stronger on B&S, but Mining a little weaker.

Swings and roundabouts. Both are great options I'd say. The Gauntlet could be proof of this. So few turns separating 3 sublime games - 2 played on B&S and 1 on Terra. Think WastinTime was playing Terra, and if he had completed it would surely be up there too, so lets say 2-2

 

[Seraiel]

I remember that in Kaitzilla's Gauntlet game, Mansa was really big, like 18 cities. Peacevassaling him must have required a lot of skill, as he was on the other side of the map, but I always wondered how Kaitzilla was able to score such a great result in so little time, and I'm sure, that skill isn't the only answer. Maybe Mansa is so important, that it must be taken into consideration, that he needs to be strong for a real top-game, otherwise the only way is endless hours of work and spiritual support.

 

[Pangaea]

Not sure where it's best to post this, but I'll try here.

Not seen this before. What gives?

Admittedly my capital is far away, which may be the reason, but a handful of cities are just a solid stonethrow away from her lands.



Another odd situation. Hatty had 760 for trade. I asked for 200 which she accepted, and suddenly there was 0 available. Why would that be?

I'm aware of the counter throughout the game, but surely if she was willing to part with 760, then 200 shouldn't remove everything else.

Actually, could this be due to financial trouble for some odd reason? Can't imagine that should be the case with all the high-level bonuses, but Civ can be a strange beast.

 

[Pangaea]

You need at least one city on the continent of a civ to be able to take it as a peace vassal.

Also, AI may always re-evaluate their slider position, Hatty probably simply raised her slider after the was gone, which is strange, but I've seen such things sometimes already.
There is another possibility, which is the one of a civic-change. If you're able to get AI into Anarchy, it's usually willing to trade more , and in the case of Hatty who can switch without Anarchy, she might have changed her civics, unless it was on the same turn ofc., then the slider is the only possible answer I know of.

It was on the same turn. I asked 200 , she accepted. I went back to the trade screen and went WTH. Thought slider changes just affected gold per turn, however, and not bulk amounts. This is gold they actually have after all.

If a city is needed on the same continent, that explains the message from Isabella. She was created by Willem, later broke free, but all her cities are off the mainland continent. Willem still has one city. What a dumbass!

 

[Seraiel]

Original answer from a different thread:

You need at least one city on the continent of a civ to be able to take it as a peace vassal.

Also, AI may always re-evaluate their slider position, Hatty probably simply raised her slider after the was gone, which is strange, but I've seen such things sometimes already.
There is another possibility, which is the one of a civic-change. If you're able to get AI into Anarchy, it's usually willing to trade more , and in the case of Hatty who can switch without Anarchy, she might have changed her civics, unless it was on the same turn ofc., then the slider is the only possible answer I know of.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

It was on the same turn. I asked 200 , she accepted. I went back to the trade screen and went WTH. Thought slider changes just affected gold per turn, however, and not bulk amounts. This is gold they actually have after all.

The answer is likely Failure Gold. An AI will offer above and beyond their normal limit of Gold that they will offer to you if they received some Failure Gold. But, that extra amount quickly disappears, probably as soon as the AI "re-evaluates" its situation. Normally, I'll see Failure Gold disappear after a couple of turns of not taking it, perhaps due to the AI re-evaluating their situation. I'm not sure what triggers there are for said re-evaluation, but an example seems to be whenever that AI makes a trade, which often happens between AIs, and in this case happened between you and the AI.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks Dhoomstriker. That probably explains it, because I think it was from failgold. Frustrating to not have a tech you want to give away when such amounts show up, but at least I got 200 of it. Or 20% of research for 1 turn

 

[Pangaea]

Game's been going well recently so OF COURSE something had to go to hell. It's the way of life.

Army in the process of taking out Asoka, and suddenly HC declares on me. He had a stack on the way back from a non-war war and because some pockets were unfilled with my culture, he's now threatening several empty cities in my core. Just f***ing brilliant.

As if that wasn't enough crap, I launched a GA a few turns ago, don't have slavery, and can't get it either. Perfect f***ing storm.

Oh yeah, and he murdered a settler on the way to a boat. Bloody c***.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Are you in Nationalism for Drafting?

Can you starve Cities while working Hammer-based squares to get Units built, even Warriors/Scouts?

Can you use your Workers to lure his units away from your Cities?

Can you bribe in a war ally who could capitulate him before he takes too many of your Cities?

If you Cease Fire with Asoka, maybe some of your units will teleport to a more convenient location for fighting off Huayna's forces.

Would it be worth it to gift the Cities to another AI? For example, if Asoka has 3 Cities or less, you could Cease Fire with him, gift him your non-capital Cities, then redeclare war, allowing you to retake your Cities from Asoka instead of from Huayna. Obviously, don't pick an AI with whom Huayna is at war to whom to gift some of your Cities. Preferably, pick an AI who is not running Slavery.

Of course, it might be preferable just to retake the Cities that go into City Revolt when Huayna captures them rather than to gift the Cities to an AI who could whip them down immediately.

Keep an eye on the F3 screen so that you can switch into Slavery as soon as possible.

 

[Pangaea]

At least three cities will be gone next turn, and possibly a good deal more than that depending on what he does. Had the cities at least had an archer or warrior, I could have upgraded to longbows and maces/pikes, which might save a few. But almost all cities in the middle of my empire are empty.

Are you in Nationalism for Drafting?

No. Rep-Buro-Caste-Decent.-Pacifism.

Can you starve Cities while working Hammer-based squares to get Units built, even Warriors/Scouts?

Can't build warriors, and it doesn't look like I can scrape together enough for even immortals (which would be pretty useless against maces and HA anyway). Quite a few of these cities are small, it's marathon, so a longbow is 100. Immortal is the cheapest at 60H. Tough crap

I did manage to squeeze out the rest of a cannon in one turn, but the city is a little farther away.

Can you use your Workers to lure his units away from your Cities?

This might work for one of the cities. Another has both HAs and 1-movers bearing down on it, so looks f***ed no matter what, as the HA will take the city.

Can you bribe in a war ally who could capitulate him before he takes too many of your Cities?

First thing I checked, but nobody will be bribed to war. The one that might have been willing, even if utterly useless, Mansa, have a peace treaty with HC after their "war" ended. Actually, two others are at war with Mansa, so I couldn't have bribed him either.

Not long ago HC was in a war with four others, but the AI is useless at warring each other. Just moving a few units across half the world and peacing out before any action.


Looking a little closer, I can bribe Hatty out of the Isabella war, which should allow me to bribe her on HC. Doubt it will do much good, though, because they are on opposite ends of the world.

If you Cease Fire with Asoka, maybe some of your units will teleport to a more convenient location for fighting off Huayna's forces.

None will get close enough it looks like. It's too far away. If only the AI had teched Guilds a zillion turns like they usually do, I'd have Knights, which at least can travel far quickly.

Would it be worth it to gift the Cities to another AI? For example, if Asoka has 3 Cities or less, you could Cease Fire with him, gift him your non-capital Cities, then redeclare war, allowing you to retake your Cities from Asoka instead of from Huayna. Obviously, don't pick an AI with whom Huayna is at war to whom to gift some of your Cities. Preferably, pick an AI who is not running Slavery.

Asoka still has 8 cities, so I guess that won't work. Willem only has one, though, so I can gift him anything. Don't they get auto-defenders at city gifts, or is that colonies? Doing that may actually work for the cities in most severe danger. Thanks. Will need to study the situation clearer first.

Will probably kill him Willem later anyway to try out the raise dom limit tactic. Will be fun just to see it in action I reckon.

Of course, it might be preferable just to retake the Cities that go into City Revolt when Huayna captures them rather than to gift the Cities to an AI who could whip them down immediately.

Keep an eye on the F3 screen so that you can switch into Slavery as soon as possible.

If I gift a few (only two is possible I guess) to Willem, HC will just move on to other spots, right? As he wouldn't be at war with the new owner.

Will deffo keep a great eye on the F3 screen! 3 more turns.... Absolute worst timing possible really. S**t will probably hit in the very west too, on HC's border, and that area is very lightly defended too since HC was in so many wars recently. Then there are all the islands with no defence. Sigh...

 

[elitetroops]

Cities don't get defenders when gifted. If it is 100% sure HC would capture them, it's better to gift them to Willem and take them back from him. That way the city is captured only once and less buildings are destroyed. You can probably gift all three threatened cities to Willem. But make sure you can take them back from him before he peace vassals to somebody you don't want to attack..

What HC does next is a mystery. Sometimes they just do something really wacko when the target they were aiming for doesn't exist anymore. Like stand around for several turns before moving on to a new target.

Gifting cities that don't get defenders is btw. also great for instant capitulation. Gift 4 cities, declare war and take them back the same turn with mounted units and you have enough war success to capitulate the target, as long as the other requirements also are fulfilled.

 

[Pangaea]

Cities don't get defenders when gifted. If it is 100% sure HC would capture them, it's better to gift them to Willem and take them back from him. That way the city is captured only once and less buildings are destroyed. You can probably gift all three threatened cities to Willem. But make sure you can take them back from him before he peace vassals to somebody you don't want to attack..

What HC does next is a mystery. Sometimes they just do something really wacko when the target they were aiming for doesn't exist anymore. Like stand around for several turns before moving on to a new target.

Gifting cities that don't get defenders is btw. also great for instant capitulation. Gift 4 cities, declare war and take them back the same turn with mounted units and you have enough war success to capitulate the target, as long as the other requirements also are fulfilled.

Looks pretty bad to my eyes.

Can move the unpromoted Immortal in, but he won't keep a Chariot and HA out. There is a CR2 mace just behind as well. Gifting away this city may prompt them to attack Vienne instead. I can upgrade the warrior there to a pike, ehich should keep the mounted at bay.

This will fall in two turns, and don't think I can do much about it. There are some workers around, but not many units that can get there in a few turns anyway, and the war elephant may not take the bait.

Thankfully this one can get a cannon into the city. The little stack HC got also includes a cata, so he may want to bomb away the 20% first. May be salvageable.

Then there is the very West, which is lightly defended. No invading units yet, so have a little time. Maybe slavery can help me here in 3 turns, if he invades.

Surprised Willem hasn't peace vassaled to anybody yet. He needs Friendly for that, which he thankfully isn't with anybody. If I gift him cities he may PV to me, but I'd rather kill him instead.

Hopefully HC does something stupid then Looks to me like I have to gift away at least two of those cities as I can't save them. A pain in the neck, but like you say, better with just one dice roll on destroyed buildings instead of two.

Thanks for the comments guys Was in a mood to punch kittens before

 

[Pangaea]

Is it 3x the military power you need to be safe from DOWs? I thought it was 2x, and I have 2.41 of HC right now, visible in the first screenshot.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

If I gift a few (only two is possible I guess) to Willem

I always get confused with this as well - the AI will accept any city if it has 3 or less cities so if he only has 1 then you will be able to give him all 3.