The Hall of Players

[Seraiel]

You built so few AP-Temples in your game, because it's on Marathon, so is a lot shorter all in all. If you'd finish your game 14xx AD, you'd have plenty of time to build AP-Temples everywhere.

on spreading the Corps with so few cold-whips. You don't have to fear them that much though, Kremlin + Marathon + Exec cold-whips are astonishingly efficient, because they only cost 2-pop. It'd be completely different again, if you played Epic or Normal, then it'd be 3-pop-whips or even 5-pop if not having the Kremlin, then, you wouldn't even need to think about cold-whipping. In GM-137 I cold-whipped 90% of the Execs, the most important is to spread at 5 cities / turn for as long as possible and then keep the rate as high as possible. If you can whip something you need anyhow, and get max-OF for an Exec otw., then do it, but don't build things you don't need, just because you don't wanna cold-whip, and also don't fear cold-whipping when it's necessary, it's really not bad.

 

[Seraiel]

I have a very tough decision to make. It's slightly like a situatioin where Pangaea asked for the same. I will conquer Roosevelt, which will bring me to 35% of the domination-limit. Lizzy is backwards though, and has really nice land, so I'm thinking about building a few Cavs (like 15 or so) , add the Cuirrassiers I got, finish Roosevelt with Cannons + Maces + Muskets and roll over Lizzy with the fast-moving mounted-units. This however would bring me to 45% of the domination-limit. I still want to settle at least 5-6 new world locations and I may not surpass 62%. A margin of 17% sounds generous at first imo, but in my last game, Sushi-cities took so much land, especially the ones in the new-world, that I remember them having taken over 22% of land! Settings are almost the same, so same map-size, same number of opponents a.s.o.. I also am not really fond of building 15 Cavs, when I already have enough military to conquer everyone with it, in my last round, I had a lot of military left-over at the end. I would need to build those Cavs though, because taking Roosevelt with 1-move-units will take long, the game would be probably in modern era, if I'd use those troops to conquer Lizzy afterwards.

Thankful for any advice, preferably some from someone that also has experience with Sushi-games. In my early Highscore-games, I planned with 10% of the map gained through Sushi, but that was too little is what the experience from my past game tells me. I'll explore the saves of my previous game with Peter now, maybe someone will give his opinion in the meantime though.

 

[Seraiel]

Omg, Roosevelt has 13 units in his capital and 22 in a neighbouring city . All other cities have 4 defenders at least. And I thought, this would get easy... . I can probably forget about Lizzy completely, killing those numbers requires me to at least have 22 killer-units, I planned with 16... . And because that wasn't enough, he also went for Military Science now, what a pain... It's always the same, one is happy because one thinks it'll get easy, it gets difficult. One thinks it's gonna be ultra-hard, it becomes a cakewalk :/ .

 

[Seraiel]

I've thought at least 1h about the problem of Roosevelt getting an SoD of up to 14 Grenadiers, and I've come up with 2 solutions:

1. Attack him with what I got (5 Cuirrassiers, 8 Cannons, 8 Maces, 3 Muskets) . Move onto a hill and hope that he attacks, or (better) hope that he'll try to attack the nearby city to which I pillage the road so he lands on the open flatland where I can attack him with Siege and everything after Cannons should have a fair chance at winning. Needless to say, that this would cost me troops, of which I don't have many.

2. Research Rifling, start the 3rd non-MoM-fueled GA, switch to Nationalism, draft 15 Rifles. Build some Cannons in the meantime, I think there is nothing that could stop the numbers I got + that number of Rifles and Cannons.

Or the alternative:

Forget about the MoM, forget about Notre Dame, forget about the HGs, forget about Roosevelt and attack the totally backwards Lizzy, who doesn't even have Gunpowder yet, and therefore would be a pushover.

 

[Seraiel]

No answer from anybody since 2 days? This is really weak. If we want to have more activity in the HoF, you first need to show activity by yourself. Some do, but some also don't seem to care at all, that HoF-gaming is or would be a lot more fun with more active players.

 

[Testhero]

1) Steam-lingering Lizzy with near obsolescent troops will give your economy a shot in the arm.
If Roosevelt is likely to attack you switch to drafting otherwise keep your better civics and avoid a non MoM Golden age. (You might even be able to retain a small reserve mini stack core of your best troops at home to discourage any Opportunism)

2) If all goes to plan You complete MoM and conquest of Lizzy's juicy land and start a Golden age to help bring your new conquests along.

I think that would leave you in a better position to deal with Roosevelt.
The first decision I see with this plan is How much of Lizzy's Land you want in respect to the Domination limit and how much land you want in the New-world. If you can find a cluster of good N-W resources close together over there You can afford to conquer more of the old world now rather than having to allow for such a huge Sushi culture land grab later

i) If the geography allows you might retain the outer shell of Lizzy's cities and burn (or gift) her core cities to control the position but reduce the land grab

 

[Seraiel]

@ Testhero:

I really appreciate, that you answered, but you seem to have misunderstood a lot of things. One thing I want to correct, because it's important for your games:



New cities don't hurt an empire, they make it more powerful, "every city contributes to an empire's economy" after Currency and when the city has TRs. The screenshot I posted, is from a new world city that has (almost) maximum maintenance, still, it could generate a netto surplus of 0.25 GNP I'd let it work the lake. Thinking, that cities could hurt an empire's economy, is one of the most common errors of many players. In the situation I described (Currency + city has TRs) , it's basically only theoretical examples, in which a city would not increase the overall GNP. The fault is caused, by players working unimproved tiles that give 0 while founding cities that don't have TRs far away from their empire in the beginning phase of a game. Connecting a city from the start and technologies like Currency, Banking, Economics or Corporations, so the technologies giving TRs or that increase the economy by other means, make it virtually impossible for a city to negatively influence an empire's economy, the only real case I know of is when a city is small, has no Courthouse and has Corporations, that is only for a very short time though, because with Corps, the city will have a Courthouse fast and gain in size fast too, so it will also produce benefit only a very little number of turns later.

I hth.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Riflemen are hit-and-miss against Grenadiers. Being on the offense helps, as Grenadiers only get an offensive bonus, not a defensive bonus against Riflemen.

Terrain can also play a factor, as can being the one to get the Pinch Promotion.

Cavalry are a slightly better counter to Grenadiers, but they can't be Drafted.

Then again, Drafting means you're definitely not getting Pinch on your Riflemen quickly, unless you're Aggressive.

Capturing The Hanging Gardens is nice but not necessary, but if you can wage a short war to capture and hold the MoM and then take Peace or a Cease Fire, you can get what you want and then can take the rest later.

Since you're pre-Industrialism, Drafting Riflemen could be the way to go, as you'll get less value out of your base Hammers prior to building Factories and Power Plants, but then you'll feel bad about the Anarchy hit to go into Nationalism especially when capturing MoM is just around the corner and thus you probably would launch a Golden Age before switching Civics. So, what would be the point of going after Roosevelt for MoM if you'd already launched your Golden Age before then?


What's not scary is a stack of enemy Grenadiers. What is scary is a stack of enemy Cannons, or to a lesser extent, a stack of enemy Catapults. If Roosevelt does not have Steel, you don't have to fear Cannons yet. But, you do need to expect to be counter-attacked.

An AI will choose to attack Riflemen with Grenadiers, so if your hope is to keep away attacks on your stacks, Drafting Riflemen is the the wrong thing to do. If, however, you just want to crush Roosevelt, Drafting Riflemen and/or Whipping Cavalry/Upgrading
Cuirassiers to Calvalry can be a way to go.

It really depends upon what you want from the war. Is it just MoM? Then, dump half a turn of EPs (50% slider for 1 turn, or however much you need) onto Roosevelt only and get visibility on his forces, then plan your attack to capture and hold MoM until you can broker a Cease Fire. If you can, try to set up some easy wins (killing obsolete boats, etc) so that you'll get Roosevelt talking sooner. In you take this approach, it can help to build a few defensive Cannons so that you can deter any stacks that he sends your way from assaulting your Cities prior to getting your Cease Fire (or your Peace Treaty if another AI could bribe him to attack you after you end the first war).

Or, even better, be really cheap... capture MoM, immediately launch your Golden Age, then don't even bother trying to hold the City... either gift it to your next war victim after launching your Golden Age or retreat and let Roosevelt feel good about recapturing his City. It'll take longer to get him to talk with you once he recaptures his City, but you'll have the longer Golden Age that you craved.


If you want all of his Cities in the war, then forget about using MoM on your Golden Age and build up overwhelming forces just before attacking him.


Roosevelt is still relatively weak if he mostly has Longbowmen + Grenadiers, so a focused attack can get you what you want, but build more Cannons in the short term, either for defensive purposes or to help with the attack... as long as you plan to go for Elizabeth or another AI afterward, the Cannons will get used.

 

[Seraiel]

Thank you for that post Dhoomstriker. I already wondered, that testhero was the only one to reply after 3d of waiting, but it was worth it to wait longer as it seems .

I'm thinking about a crush-type of war. The MoM is deep in Roosevelts territory, so I can snipe the city easily. 8 of 9 cities from him are really good, so I want to have them all, and several wars are no option, because I then, I lose Lizzy as a friend, and I don't know yet, if she still may play a role as a trade-partner later, I don't know how long conquering Roosevelt takes, maybe I won't have time to conquer both of them.
Going for the MoM after starting a GA still makes sense, as I'm gonna start two further ones. Then the MoM didn't pay off that greatly, but better 1 free GA than nothing, and getting ND is also nice.

Thx again for taking the time.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If the MoM isn't easy to snipe and you are set on doing a single war against Roosevelt "properly," then I see you having a few options:
1. Detouring to Rifling, building Cannons, and Drafting Riflemen
2. Building Cannons, going after a few of Elizabeth's Cities in a short war, and focusing on getting up Factories and Coal Plants before pumping out Military Units to go after Roosevelt
3. Forget about a detour to Rifling, switch into Slavery, and whip Cannons + Cuirassiers
4. Detouring to Rifling, building Cannons, and whipping Cavalry


Personally, I would put less emphasis on angering Elizabeth and just plan to take her land as well as Roosevelt's, so keeping her happy no longer becomes a priority and thus multiple wars with Roosevelt can make sense.


If you want the wars to go smoothly, plan for Rifling. Riflemen are cheaper on your population points, but against Grenadiers or a more backward AI, Cavalry are a more effective choice.

It's hard to say whether you want to invest the extra population points purely in Cavalry, though... if you have The Pyramids and can switch into Police State, then 30 * 1.5 = 45 Hammers per population point (scale the number for your Game Speed) is justifiable, but without Police State, Nationalism and Drafting is a far more efficient use of your population points (110 Hammers or whatever the cost of a Rifleman is per population point).

The main downside with Drafting is that you're looking at only getting 15 Riflemen (possibly scaled to more for a larger-sized map) for 5 turns of Nationalism, so while it's a good population-to-Military-Units conversion, you are limited on how much you can take advantage of it.

It's not a terrible idea to increase the Espionage Slider while in Nationalism, especially since you won't get as many Flasks without Bureaucracy, if you can find a good use for the Espionage Points (City Revolts, stealing Techs, Spreading Culture, stealing a treasury, etc), that is, if you plan to build some Spies.


I'd probably say:
1. Go for Rifling ASAP if you want a smooth war (or multiple smooth wars)
2. Pre-build Cuirassiers and Cannons to be whipped (leave the Cuirassiers in the build queues so that they'll become Cavalry on the turn after learning Rifling)
3. Launch a non-MoM Golden Age to switch into Nationalism + Police State + Slavery, then Draft (don't over-whip Cities before Drafting, as you need I think 7 population points to Draft) and Whip out a good stack of Riflemen, Cannons, and Cavalry
4. Steamroll Roosevelt first then Elizabeth


If you wait a while, you'll just need the next level of tech to have a smooth war (probably Tanks). Basically, you want to first leverage your tech advantage into unlocking efficient Military Units, spam those Military Units, and then get them to the fields quickly before your technological superiority dries up. It'll be a far more efficient approach than, say, waiting to get Rifling in trade from Elizabeth later just to save on Flasks, only to have to spend a ton of Hammers on Tanks to take down her Redcoats.

Going for the MoM after starting a GA still makes sense, as I'm gonna start two further ones. Then the MoM didn't pay off that greatly, but better 1 free GA than nothing, and getting ND is also nice.

A better way to look at it is that for a smooth war, you have to switch Civics and thus you'll save, say, 3 or 4 turns of Anarchy for 4 less turns (maybe scaled by Game Speed) of Golden Age. I'd take that trade any day, as a turn of Anarchy is quite painful compared to a non-Golden-Age turn, with probably the only exception being early in the game when you're bleeding Gold per non-Golden-Age turn (i.e. pre-Currency after a successful hard rush), basically at a time when Anarchy isn't a bad tradeoff due to saving on Commerce in exchange for lost Food and Hammers.

 

[Seraiel]

@ Dhoomstriker:

I think you misjudge a few things. 15 Rifles is a ton of Military, that's not "only 15 troops" , that's the maximum number of troops I could convince myself to, and I only can do that, because drafting is so cheap / efficient. Whipping Cavalries and Cuirrassiers is very expensive in kind of population, and I want to keep all of my cities as large as possible, as every point of population is a lot of , and -rate is the #1 goal in Spaceraces. Whipping Cannons, yes, because there unfortunately is no other way to get them in a justifyable time, but Cavalries and Cuirrassiers are imo. Dom- / Conquest units, they're imo. absolutely counter-suited for Spaceraces, even though they're excellent units.

 

[Pangaea]

Have you continued the game or decided what to do? I was gone for a week so couldn't write anything, but don't think I'd be able to wait for a week or more before continuing the game when you're in the "zone" so to speak.

You need Rifling at some point anyway, though I at least usually postpone it for a long time in space games, hoping somebody else does it for me. It won't be a total waste though, like MilScience or MilTradition. (Okay, okay, it's not a TOTAL waste, before everybody jump in, but you don't need it for space, which means I don't want to tech it either).

You probably have big cities at this point, so it hurts to whip them, but maybe 1 Rifle from 15 different cities isn't too bad, plus whipping some Cannons on top. That should be a very solid army in addition to what you have already. Unless your border with Roosevelt is long and twisted, you should be able to put most of your eggs in one basket and whack him solidly over the head.

Looking at the game I was playing before leaving (may or may not complete it), it's a benefit to have many coastal borders cleaned up, so you have fewer land borders with the AI. Sushi will wreak less havoc then, and your dom limit will rise less fast.

Horsies are nice for quickly getting rid of siege, but of course, if you're attacking cities, you won't get flanking anyway, so you may as well use Rifles +leftovers. If you may attack him outside cities, however, it may be worth it to put some Cuirs/Cavs in the stack, maybe on OF from cannon whips. Wouldn't mass-whip them, though, as it's better to draft Rifles instead as you want to keep city size up to retain a high beaker output.

 

[Seraiel]

I haven't played the game further yet, I currently suffer from lack of time / motivation.

Thx for agreeing with Dhoomstriker's advice to go for Rifling, the decision is a lot easier for me if I know, that both of you weight further conquest so high and would make that investment. I hesitate a lot with such decisions, to me, Rifling means that I will get Sushi later, and Sushi is powerful, but unable to judge just how powerful Sushi is and how much I'd miss, I got stuck. I really appreciate you three having taken the time, but have made my decision now, I'll start a GA, switch to Slavery and Nationalism and research Rifling before that ofc.. Worst case is, that I have fun crushing Roosevelt and maybe Lizzy, and fun at last is the most important goal when playing, more important than max-science-rate in a Spacerace :

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Whipping Missionaries is one way to earn Gold to keep up your Science Rate. Whipping Cannons to efficiently capture AI Cities is another way to earn Gold to keep up your Science Rate.

I'm a little bit torn on the idea of making Colonies. I'd buttered-up some starting AIs to Friendly status, then found a couple of Colonies for Happiness purposes, only to realise belatedly that I could no longer trade techs with the buttered-up AIs. I'd let Hammurabi get all the way up to Economics, thinking that I could get Guilds, Banking, and Economics in trade from him once I'd finished off The Taj Mahal, only to realise belatedly that he was no longer Friendly toward my "team." I suppose now that the only real options are to steal Techs from Hammurabi, wait a long time until he is Friendly toward my Colonies (although he's Cautious toward one of them, so that wait could be a long time), wait until other AIs learn the Techs (although Hammurabi hasn't met those AIs yet), or just get the Techs from Hammurabi one at a time in multiple wars.

I'll probably go with the war route, since my forces are already at his borders... I was going to trade for his Techs and then fight him, but I suppose that I'll just have to reverse the order of those tasks.

How does one deal with Colonial Maintenance on a map with a lot of large-sized islands? Is it good to stick it out with State Property for a Space game so as to be able to have multiple large-sized islands? Is it better to stick with Corporations and just selectively choose 2 to 3 Cities max per island?

 

[Pangaea]

So I've been back home for almost a week and not fired up the game yet, nor had much of an inkling to do so. Maybe I'll be able to withdraw from it now, and spend time on more productive things. If that persists, I'll naturally be here a great deal less, if at all.

Would be a little shame to not finish the game I was playing after investing maybe 200 hours into it, but that's life. I really ought to spend that kind of time on other things.

 

[WastinTime]

Seraiel has been sucked into the SGotm....my bad

 

[yyeah]

Sup guys hello .
Seraiel any sugestion for a map ?
Ive heard that WT wont be mad if i take 1 of hes spots

 

[Dhoomstriker]

any suggestion for a map ?

I find that it can be hard to decide... so, let someone else make the decision for you. In that regard, check out the Challenge series.

Also, see the sub-forum for messages related to each game.

The games there seem to be well-thought-out to make for fun challenges. About 30% of those games target some of the more-easily beatable #1 HOF slots. So, whoever gets a #1 spot in about 30% of those Challenge games can also destroy an existing HOF record.

The nice part is that you have some other players who are playing similar rounds, so you can still share tips with each other. The other nice part is that a lot of the settings are already picked for you, so you don't have to stress over getting the ultimately-best settings and can just go ahead and start playing with some decent settings, whereas some of the settings often will not make much of a difference anyway.

These facts mean more time for playing, less time for stress, and not taking a #1 spot still gets you cumulative points in the Challenge, thus your effort still gets rewarded regardless of your outcome.

 

[yyeah]

Thanks Dhoomstriker interesting formula this Challenge seriers,and yea its huge + that i dont have to find a "exact" map what sometimes can take weeks.

 

[Pangaea]

Huh. Looks like the forum died again when Seraiel and I stopped posting. I've not played the game for a good while now, so who knows what happens to the HOF game I was playing, but I keep an eye on the current SGOTM.

Back to Baldur's Gate I go...