The Hall of Players

[shulec]

Hello All
Having very recently submitted my first HoF entry (accepted/not yet published), I now feel entitled to post in this forum . I've been away from the forums over last few months batting my head against Deity. There comes a point where you have to stop reading as much and just play.

So, finally!...after many failed attempts I've finally managed to get a legit Deity win. I didn't optimize anything in game settings, map type, chosen opponents, etc. other than just playing a decent start. It was just the latest in a long series of deity-beating attempts; with no intention at all to compete for HoF spots.

Nice game! Your settings create a game that is not very competitive for HoF, but are very rewarding. One of my games I am very proud of is on no ones radar. I randomized everything and had a very non-HoF start.

Stealing workers: This is something I almost always do in HoF and BOTM games. By attacking early, you slow the AI you have attacked. You can die quickly if you can't get peace. Killing scouts or getting Alphabet can save you. Stealing from DeGaulle is the best because he is the quickest to accept a cease fire. I personally don't like choking. It tends to make the AI produce a lot of archers. However, if you do not plan to attack them early, choking will really slow them down.

Taking down 1-2 civs early: Any game that you can do this will give you a huge advantage. However, in deity level games, it is usually not possible without creating a situation to make it possible such as using crowded map, strong early UU such as Vulture, WC, Immortal. It is possible to use Horse Archers for rushes, but this usually requires a neighbor without metal/spears and/or choking. Some Warmongering players can effectively take a few civs with cats and elephants. Again, AIs with limited access to metal helps. Otherwise, the games are like S & T games going for Cuirrassiers/cannons/rifles/cavalry to start warring.

Hand picking the map and AI can really help. I find for deity that you want a mix of good guys and bad guys, otherwise the AI will out-tech you by trading amongst themselves if it is a love fest.

Playing on Marathon greatly nerfs the AI too.

 

[ShiVvV]

Shulec-I took a very cursory look at the logs your game you mentioned. It looks like there was some excitement at the end near the time of your spaceship launch when war was declared on your DP ally! Fighting wars with modern age units can is rare for me but it's a lot of fun...and stressful!

Stealing workers
Yes, in the handful of games where I've set myself the task of stealing--the getting peace part has always been the problem. Plus, I'm sure that there are many tactical level, nuts n bolts type techniques that I don't really know how to use in order to get my stolen workers and get out--w/o wrecking my game. Thanks for the DeGaulle info.
Early wars
From what I can gather reading about how the best players start their games on Imm+ settings, the early wars seem almost required in order to get big enough, fast enough to compete with the AIs longterm. I should explore crowding the map more although I just can't make myself play Marathon. I play way too damn slow as it is. My early-ish war decisions seem to be more of the type where I have nasty neighbor situations, and the sooner I deal with them the better.

Honestly my focus isn't to pursue #1 spots on HoF (like I could anways ) but is more to play those 'satisfying' games by winning random-type games at Deity. I generally keep barbs on (not raging), never have huts on and more often than not I leave events on--fully realizing these settings are probably not very conducive if seeking a top spot.

Thanks for your advice. Maybe it's time for me to start playing some of the guantlets or challenges.

 

[Pangaea]

If you like playing with events on, this can actually help you in the early game when worker stealing, because sometimes it can prompt a random cease fire or peace treaty.

Thanks for the well-wishes, I hope all heals well too

I'd like to write more, but typing with one hand is slow as hell, and the others will give you stellar advice anyway. Good luck, winning on Deity is no easy feat, and that first win feels great!

 

[ShiVvV]

Pangaea
To be completely honest, I became inspired to finally really give Deity a go by following your endeavors to do so earlier this year. So...kudos!

 

[Pangaea]

That is nice to hear It was a rough ride, but a great feeling when I finally got a non-reload win at Deity.

 

[Seraiel]

Hi ShiVvV .

Don't worry too much about those tactics, I needed years to learn them. Getting the most out of your cities is way much more important, and it's a necessary step before trying to go for superearly wars. Also be aware, that superearly wars mainly increase the number of chances where one can have luck, and that they also come with downsides, like i. e. the loss of a tradepartner and also that they're often combined with high loss-rates. Focus on the strategies that are easier to pull of first, so play some Cuirrassier-rushes or go for drafted-Rifles. Learning how to get an AI on friendly is more important than learning to rush it 2500 BC.
Also, the current GM-137 is on Marathon, which allows for completely different tactics, because it has many more turns, and the units are relatively cheaper. When you play Marathon, early war is basically a must, but on Normal speed and above, wars before Elepult usually have big downsides.

Sera

 

[ShiVvV]

Seraiel
Cuirs and draft Rifles are pretty much par for the course with me in the majority of my games (standard size/normal speed/6 AIs). I have had some games recently where I've not worried quite as much about winning Lib (meaning mostly not minding if I pick up Machinery and mess up my GS bulb path toward Lib) and tried some earlier medieval warring with Maces/Trebs/Knights. However, the returns on medieval war have been rather minimal for me generally. I'm usually wishing I'd just gone straight for Lib and proceeded with Rifles/Cannons or Cuirs.

Your point about marathon speed coupled with the large map settings that were used in G-Major 137 is well-taken though. I'm assuming that probably had a lot to do with the decisions that most of the players made to go heavy on the worker steals and early wars.

I often feel that I don't play aggressively enough, especially early on, and end up delaying wars of choice until rifles/cuirs when I might have gotten a better game by being more aggressive earlier.

I'm really eager to use that missionary/exec whip for failgold tactic! I'm not sure I completely understand but I have a pretty good idea how to experiment with it after reading about 1/2 of G-major 137 and your hybrid economy guide.

 

[Seraiel]

Marathon really is something completely different. It has three times as many turns, a Warrior for stealing on it is as fast as if you had a fully roaded Engineering empire. It also takes very very very long, until the AIs reach something that can stand up against Maces, I think no AI even got something against them in the whole time at which I was warring, so until I had 40% of the land.

I also felt like I wouldn't play too aggressively often, but warring on the faster tech-speeds, Deity and with ancient or classical units really takes a lot of practice and also has a high commitment. The best point to start is usually with Catapults, then Elepult can do wonders, but even that rush requires very good coordination, like i. e. cycling chops and whips to have 1 unit / T, and Deity-AIs still can reach Longbows, so it's needed to isolate the AI one wants to attack by trading with the others. Oracling Currency or Construction is also almost mandatory, to be able to attack early enough. Advantage of Elepult ofc. is, that one can upgrade the troops to Cuirrs and take the Catapults as CGs later, much better than Axes or Maces on Normal.

The Fail-Missionary / Exec method is mostly for Corporation-games, because only in those, the deficit is large enough and one gets the Kremlin early enough, so that it's really good.

 

[Pangaea]

Awesome. Back to the doc today because my right side has been in increasing pain, and I've broken a rib too. Can this summer get any better?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Awesome. Back to the doc today because my right side has been in increasing pain, and I've broken a rib too.

Oh dear, no luck!

 

[Seraiel]

Hmmm... Ribs... .

 

[Seraiel]

The fastest Deity Normal speed Spacerace is a 1570 AD Spacerace by Sun Tzu Wu and it's OCC too? Fireaxis really did a very good job making OCC "competetive" . Don't think I manage to finish my current attempt at creating the fastest Normal speed Spacerace on Deity difficulty 'til the upcoming update, but I'll keep you updated.

 

[Seraiel]

Beat the record for the fastest Deity Normal speed Spacerace:

Game lasted 200h, I never would have even remotely guessed in what a drag it would develop. First I wasn't even sure I'd get a #1, because I sometimes was as 1/3 of the GNP Mansa made, so it was really hard to keep up in tech and conquer at the same time. Then I got some really unlucky GPs, like 3 GAs, 2 Great Prophets and 3 Great Spies, I even lost the SoL because I didn't whip it (I knew how many Mansa had into it but thought I'd get it because I didn't knew about the era-related bonus of the AIs) , which was really horrible with having 20 continent-cities, which is like 25-30 on a normal sized map.
At the right time, everything fell in place though, Mansa went for the right techs and everything I had done before, without knowing if it would pay back (like i. e. founding cities in the new world from which I didn't knew if they would create any benefit) worked, and I was able to conduct 9k netto BPT on small map and raced towards Ecology at 1 tech / turn:



Even learned, that the GE from Fusion can be used for bulbing Genetics or Ecology, which both wasn't necessary though. Pulled of some crazy stuff like 2-turning the casings or the Stasis Chamber and 4-turning the Engines.

T200 1500 AD finish on the spot.

--------------

Will probably play another Spacerace on Standard Normal or Standard Epic, because both games are very good, and I'm well rehearsed for Spaceraces after the Gauntlet and this game currently. Don't know which slot to take, Standard / Normal always has the attractiveness of being somehow "standard-setting for CIV" , and beating STW would get me a little more space in the Deity #1's statistic. WastinTime's 1480 AD Standard Epic Spaceraces cries to be beaten though, because it's the fastest non-Marathon-Spacerace, and Epic speed makes a lot more fun to play, because normal is just idiotic. Did you know, that it's majorly inefficient to produce about anything else than Wealth or Research in the high-hammer-enviroment that comes with a HoF Spacerace on Normal speed, because one only gets the base-hammers in from wasted OF? This is a major problem, and it must be horrible to play Quick speed, because Normal is already horrible. Spies, Missionaries, even Workers cost insane amounts of , so or , because so much is wasted due to this mechanic. Also things like growing cities with Sushi is really horrible, I once had a city that had 90/36 ! To get anything for that , I needed to let the city produce Settlers for 3T, so that all the got transformed into which again became , but the ratios ofc. are non-acceptable.

I wished I could record a video of a game like the one I played, because there's so much to learn, and Spaceraces are just so much more interesting than Domination / Conquest games, but I don't know how I could get those 200h down to something like 30-40. I would basically have to not record all the micro and only record when something interesting is shown, but one doesn't know that before sometimes.

Any feedback appreciated.

 

[Pangaea]

Wow, this looks like an interesting site. Is there any activity for such an old game?

(Thinly veiled criticism for spending a whole goddamn week to move servers)

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Great game there Seraiel. Looks like this Gauntlet means pretty much every spacerace in the HoF can be targeted now. I'm trying a game myself. Have had both good luck and back luck. Got the chariots quest, so all immortals get free C1 promotion, almost like having a free barracks in all cities (better really, because 2XP gives you C2 or other stuff from that tier). But horses were really far away, had to settle past another AI. Not exactly ideal

Probably sounds nuts, but I sort of miss the AI Deity bonuses (playing immortal level), because I'm much slower, and part of that is a horribly slow alpha date.

Due to having to wait on size 1 cities many times in that game, I'm now leaning towards "No city razing" is better than the ability to raze useless cities or wrongly placed cities. Like the idiocy below.

Spoiler :

Resettled it on PH. Why the AI didn't place it there to begin with... no idea. No other cities nearby and no other resources either.

 

[Seraiel]

The Plains-hill picks up a lot more deserts, and AI values very highly, so that's probably why the AI prefered to take all those crappy 1 2 coastal tiles instead of the extra . Hatty is also CRE, so it doesn't matter that the food is in the 2nd ring. I wonder why you still aren't playing with any graphical-mod though.

I'm just thinking about how to set up my new map. The discovery that raising the domination-limit is possible makes everything more difficult. I first wanted to refuse to play with that approach, but then I was thinking about choosing B&S for better Sushi, which makes Colonies mandatory, because keeping Happiness isn't possible otherwise, and if I already need to create Colonies, then I also can take the free raise of the dom-limit.

I'm still not sure about how powerful the stronger Sushi is. In my latest game, I saw that every point of population costs a max. of 2 with a Courthouse. Having in mind, that a Specialist can be 9 without any problems, that ofc. suggests that the stronger Sushi is absolutely needed. Otoh though, B&S comes with more maintenance which is especially bad in the beginning, and for stronger Sushi to pay back, the cities first need to grow, before that it is just more cost. As written, I also had way too much on normal speed, so stronger Sushi wouldn't have necessarily nettoed in more population, and this brings me back to if playing Terra with min-opponents and no-Vassals isn't maybe better. Could be, that all of those approaches are only good for Marathon.

 

[elitetroops]

Congrats Seraiel, Great game! Looks like the space colony tables are going to get a lot tougher soon. Gauntlet did it's job.

Not sure how feasible it is to raise the domination limit on a standard sized map. With max opponents the first 7 colonies would do nothing, only the 8th and on would raise the limit.

 

[Seraiel]

Would you be so kind and explain what is needed to raise the domination-limit again? As I understood it, one only needs to kill of an opponent and replace it by a Colony, but your post makes me suggest that only opponents added past the 17th raise the limit?

 

[elitetroops]

Domination limit is determined by the amount of original AI, dead or alive, on the score board (AI added at the beginning of the game). Creating colonies will add names to the scoreboard until it is full. Dead AI will not disappear as long as there is still room to add more names. There's space for 18 names (player+17 AI). Only when the list is full, dead AI will start disappearing when colonies are added. So basically you have to first create colonies to fill the score board, then kill some original AI and create colonies to replace them.

 

[Seraiel]

Thx .

 

[Pangaea]

I wonder why you still aren't playing with any graphical-mod though.

I simply like the look better this way. Tried BAT in the past, but didn't like some of the graphical changes. Plains and grasslands were harder to differentiate with only a cursory glance for instance. Didn't like the mod you have a fancy for either. Quite frankly I simply like the look of the base game better.

As I recall, BAT also made the game slower, which is a concern in the late game with a jillion units around.

This isn't meant as criticism ofc, I just like the default game's look better personally.