The Hall of Players

I begin to hate smaller maps and normal speed. There are things that make larger maps more difficult, but then it's so difficult to play with less cities i. e., because every city just matters so much. One unit can make a decisive difference in a war effort, but which city should build it, if one only has 10 to choose of, 6 being too far away, 1 being weak, 1 being a Shrine-city building a Bank and the last one being the HE-city, that desperately needs a Cathedral, because the smaller the map, the less different resources are available, making Healthiness and Happiness a really difficult issue.
Then the less trade possibilities. You all know that its important to isolate a target one plans on attacking, but how to do this, if there are only a handful of opponents left, and when the target is the only civ having Astro?
Worst are all the scaling problems. It's not much to be 1T late on a tech that needs 10T to research, but being 1T late on a tech that only needs 3 or 4T? If it's a "race-tech" ?

I don't know if this is understandable, but I just plain hate how fast games progress on Normal or even Quick, especially with the games entering the later eras. They just should have made all end-game techs multiple times more expensive, where's the sense in techs obsoleting within a small number of turns, or even with the ridiculous scenario of "1-turning techs like Satellites, Composites or Superconductors" . There just happens "too much" every turn, and every move is too important. 1T = 1h? I'm at 1T in 3h atm. !

:mad:

HoF dates imho tell too, that the faster speeds aren't highly contested, otherwise, why would the victory dates be so bad? And then there are those super-games like the 1140 AD Conquest on Huge Normal by kovacsflo, that show, that it's possible to create a really amazing game. I worship games like that, but all they tell me, is that a really good game can be a lot better than most of the games that are on the frontpage, which only raises the expectation I have at my current game. And then so ridiculous, what can be achieved with less effort, like going for a cheesy OCC-PA-Spacerace, finishing in the 15xx. Best example are all those diplo-games, where finishing in 12xx AD is possible without problems with OCC, while only finishing like 100y earlier requires to make a major effort, and play a game that takes 10 times of the time that an OCC game would have taken. How is that fair?
 
And then so ridiculous, what can be achieved with less effort, like going for a cheesy OCC-PA-Spacerace, finishing in the 15xx. Best example are all those diplo-games, where finishing in 12xx AD is possible without problems with OCC, while only finishing like 100y earlier requires to make a major effort, and play a game that takes 10 times of the time that an OCC game would have taken. How is that fair?

I think it's impressive that they were able to design a game where OCC has a chance at being competitive and that approach can even hold a #1 position as long as someone doesn't expend the (often huge) effort to beat it the traditional way. OCC would not be interesting if it didn't at least have a chance at a decent date. :goodjob: Firaxis. I think OCC sets an appropriate bar, but we all know it's beatable every time with non-OCC if you want to. But yea, there are only so many turns you can shave off on quick speed, so don't expect to beat it by much.
 
I think it's impressive that they were able to design a game where OCC has a chance at being competitive and that approach can even hold a #1 position as long as someone doesn't expend the (often huge) effort to beat it the traditional way. OCC would not be interesting if it didn't at least have a chance at a decent date. :goodjob: Firaxis. I think OCC sets an appropriate bar, but we all know it's beatable every time with non-OCC if you want to. But yea, there are only so many turns you can shave off on quick speed, so don't expect to beat it by much.

I know this isn't good for my reputation, but I already lost once against an OCC-PA-Spacerace, and it's not that I didn't want to or that I wouldn't have made an effort. I also just took a look in the HoF, 1485 AD Epic Spacerace (from you) with OCC? Seriously?

From my understanding, playing OCC should be an extra-challenge, those games should never be competetive, and especially, they shouldn't have a chance to be the best Spacerace on Deity on non-Marathon-speeds!

To me it atm. almost seems, that it's not only easier to simply join the winning team than playing a standard multi-city approach, but that it's even more competetive with the right settings. Maybe it was only your usual advantage of AI doing exactly what you need it to (you know, the secret pact you got with the AIs) , but how come that really all other non-Marathon-spaceraces on Deity have been won later? Somebody must have had equal luck in so many games, yet, he finished later?
One can play 10 OCC games in the time where one plays one normal game, so it's even easier to get one try where the stars align correctly, don't you think so?
 
It's really the endgame where one really races to Space where it's decided if it becomes a 15xx, a 16xx or a 17xx Spacerace. I'm not sure there are any 14xx Spaceraces on Normal speed, but maybe I'll take a stronger leader next time and try.
I assume you mean on Deity? If so the answer is no.
 
I assume you mean on Deity? If so the answer is no.

I initially ment on all difficulties, because I thought that Spaceraces on lower difficulties could not make up for the bonus of fast-researching Deity-AIs that trade their techs, but I now see, that there are actually way faster Spaceraces on the lower difficulties. I wonder why the fastest of all normal speed Spaceraces (900 AD finish) was played on a Rainforest map. How can that map be competetive? Did we maybe miss something in the current Gauntlet, with thinking only Terra or B&S could be best, and is there maybe a 3rd mapscript that's at least competetive or even better?
 
I don't mind the diplo OCC games, it has been shown that those games can be easily beaten with a non-OCC approach. But if it is really that hard to compete with OCC space races, then something is wrong... Curious though, shouldn't a non-OCC PA game still have a great advantage over an OCC PA game?

I wonder why the fastest of all normal speed Spaceraces (900 AD finish) was played on a Rainforest map. How can that map be competetive? Did we maybe miss something in the current Gauntlet, with thinking only Terra or B&S could be best, and is there maybe a 3rd mapscript that's at least competetive or even better?
I think I was asking the same question at some point in the gauntlet thread. My guess is that rainforest gets more brutal on marathon as it takes too long to clear the jungle. Most of the rainforest #1 games are in the 1450-1550AD range. If you are looking for a 700AD victory, you need that jungle cleared a lot earlier.
 
I wonder why the fastest of all normal speed Spaceraces (900 AD finish) was played on a Rainforest map. How can that map be competetive? Did we maybe miss something in the current Gauntlet, with thinking only Terra or B&S could be best, and is there maybe a 3rd mapscript that's at least competetive or even better?

I don't think that map would be better on Deity. Here's why I think it works on lower difficulty:

Look, for example, at 140 BC space race, by iggymnrr. It's on Highlands!
for probably the same reason as rainforest ---> huts.

He got 14 free settlers!
14 free workers!
And 19 free techs!
plus a ton of cash and some warriors.
 
Curious though, shouldn't a non-OCC PA game still have a great advantage over an OCC PA game?

Yes, as you said, non-OCC always has the potential to be better than OCC, just like non-PA will always beat PA cus you can build space parts faster than the AI if you try hard enough.

Again, I like how the PA games are at least reasonably competitive.
 
One can play 10 OCC games in the time where one plays one normal game, so it's even easier to get one try where the stars align correctly, don't you think so?

I don't think it has anything to do with stars aligning.
I think 14xx-15xx is about what you'd get every time you played Standard/Epic/Deity.

The 1570 AD Standard/Normal game was OCC too. I think that was a gauntlet, so that is probably as good as OCC can get on Standard/normal/Deity.
 
I don't think that map would be better on Deity. Here's why I think it works on lower difficulty:

Look, for example, at 140 BC space race, by iggymnrr. It's on Highlands!
for probably the same reason as rainforest ---> huts.

He got 14 free settlers!
14 free workers!
And 19 free techs!
plus a ton of cash and some warriors.
The fastest normal speed space victories (any mapsize) on prince, monarch and emperor have been played on rainforest maps, and one immortal normal speed #1 as well. Cannot be all about huts. But yeah, on settler Highlands is probably the best. The crazy amount of land gives you crazy amounts of huts.
 
The fastest normal speed space victories (any mapsize) on prince, monarch and emperor have been played on rainforest maps, and one immortal normal speed #1 as well. Cannot be all about huts. But yeah, on settler Highlands is probably the best. The crazy amount of land gives you crazy amounts of huts.

I believe those were just gauntlets and rainforest may have been forced on them.
I think you're just seeing an unusually competitive slot because it was a gauntlet which brought the stronger players to Prince/Monarch.

Kaitzilla's 1450 AD was with Zara, which I'm sure was also forced on him. You would not draw the conclusion that Zara is the best leader for space race, so you probably shouldn't give RainForest too much credit for that finish date either.
 
Does anybody know why Mansa is such a brilliant researcher? I always thought he was only fast, because he trades with everything with almost everybody, but in my current game I payed close attention to the GNP, and he always conducts twice of the average empire's GNP. Not a GLH case, and what's really surprising, is, that Hatty even got 50% and 20% world religion shrines, and still, she's well behind Mansa in teching speed, she's actually really slow and it's unbelievable that her GNP are only half of Mansa's (can see via espionage) with those Shrines and CRE on top. Mansa got no shrines and only built 2 world-wonders, and seeing him research Physics in 4T while I need 5 for the cheaper Communism tells me, that his GNP are mostly :science: and not :culture: .

I've become aware of this issue, because Pangaea had him as a Vassal in that Prince Spacerace Gauntlet, and said he was doing well, despite the lower difficulty. Are these rare cases, or is Mansa the new dream-vassal everybody of us will look for in future?





I've btw. taken over Asoka almost completely now. Ofc. I had 5 Cuirrassier-losses on the first city and some random troops I encountered in the deepths of Lizzy's empire, but all Axes were sucessful :lol: .
 
Does anybody know why Mansa is such a brilliant researcher? I always thought he was only fast, because he trades with everything with almost everybody, but in my current game I payed close attention to the GNP, and he always conducts twice of the average empire's GNP. Not a GLH case, and what's really surprising, is, that Hatty even got 50% and 20% world religion shrines, and still, she's well behind Mansa in teching speed, she's actually really slow and it's unbelievable that her GNP are only half of Mansa's (can see via espionage) with those Shrines and CRE on top. Mansa got no shrines and only built 2 world-wonders, and seeing him research Physics in 4T while I need 5 for the cheaper Communism tells me, that his GNP are mostly :science: and not :culture: .
I've been wondering the same thing often. Looking for an explanation in the XML, I think ImprovementWeightModifiers might explain it in part. Mansa prefers towns and windmills, which usually give the most commerce for both flatland and hills. With a bias towards cottaging, he will have an advantage over those who prefer farming or workshopping. Hatty has no ImprovementWeightModifiers, just randomly picking whatever improvements to build. Maybe you can see a difference between how they have improved their lands in your game?

There are 4 other leaders with the same ImprovementWeightModifiers as Mansa: Elizabeth, Gandhi, Hannibal and Lincoln. Of these, I have often found Gandhi to be the strongest techer, sometimes even outperforming Mansa. I usually think of Gandhi and Mansa in a league of their own when it comes to teching. Comparing to the other 3 on the list, Mansa and Gandhi have low iEspionageWeight (60 and 50), while the rest have 100-110, which should make the other 3 more likely to use espionage slider.

Flavors probably also plays a part. Mansa has high gold flavor, which seems to be the best flavor for AI. All of the leaders with high gold flavor are decent techers (Darius, Elizabeth, HC, MM, Sury, Vicky, Wangkon, Willem). Gandhi's culture flavor and Hannibal's high military flavor will make them invest more resources into stuff that doesn't help teching much. Lincoln has high science flavor, which doesn't appear to help the AI become very strong techers, at least not compared to those with high gold flavor. Other AI with high science flavor are Peter, Toku and Joao.

FIN trait of course helps as well. I haven't been keeping track of how often AI changes civics. How many turns of anarchy does SPI save an AI? Anyway, SPI should be a decent trait for an AI, as I doubt they can plan when to make civic changes for the smallest impact.

It seems that Mansa is strong in all regions that can have an effect on teching. They might be small effects, but combined they give him a bigger edge. And add on that his tendency to happily trade with everyone. So there's probably not one reason why he is so strong, just a lot of small reasons.
 
How many turns of anarchy does SPI save an AI? Anyway, SPI should be a decent trait for an AI, as I doubt they can plan when to make civic changes for the smallest impact.
I can't find the post now but they don't plan at all, every 25(?) turns they evaluate whether or not they should switch civics. They don't take account of techs about to be researched that unlock new civics, whether or not they are at war, whether a Golden Age is likely soon. They are really, really dumb when it comes to this stuff so SPI is a great help. FIN is powerful for an AI because it basically requires no planning. As you say it's a combination of things that all go really well together.
 
I can't find the post now but they don't plan at all, every 25(?) turns they evaluate whether or not they should switch civics. They don't take account of techs about to be researched that unlock new civics, whether or not they are at war, whether a Golden Age is likely soon. They are really, really dumb when it comes to this stuff so SPI is a great help. FIN is powerful for an AI because it basically requires no planning.
That was my guess as well. So Mansa has 2 strong AI traits. I wouldn't expect an AI to know how to properly use PHI or IND, so passive traits are indeed best. IND might even be harmful to an AI as that makes them more likely to build useless wonders.
 
My understanding of the "flavour-mechanic" is different, I thought it only is responsible for the AIs tech-choices. Every tech has a flavour, this is why we always see Mansa and Lizzy go Economics while Science-flavoured civs go earlier for Education than others.
And I'm sure I've read that AIs are aware if they're in war when switching civics. The 25T timer afaik is only when they are, if not, they evaluate civics every 10T, ofc. also with no plan ^^ .

The FIN + Cottage + Windmills is a really good explanation imo. Mansa's land is full of Cottages and Windmills, while Hatty mostly even got unimproved land -.- . It must be the combination of small economical bonuses + high multipliers from Deity, that causes these great differences.

Hannibal and Gandhi to been extremely strong I can confirm, Hannibal is one of the AIs I sometimes really "fear" , like also Zara Yaqob, because they're often so strong. Gandhi gets often screwed by his extremely high peaceweight imo, Zara with being CRE grabs a lot of land which also is a main factor that makes AIs become strong.

Thx for your posts elitetroops and NobleZarkon :) . This will probably influence my choice of opponents in future. If one chooses strong techers for Spaceraces like Mansa + Gandhi + Asoka + Zara, faster finisih dates should be possible, though they're probably a nightmare to play, but hey, "before fame, there comes suffering" ;) :
 
City improvements also has flavors. Those with strong gold flavor would prefer to build gold multipliers sooner. Maybe the way the AI handles the slider makes gold multipliers more beneficial than science multipliers. Or then the main reason those with high gold flavor are stronger techers than those with high science flavor is that they are mostly financial and tend to get along with their neighbors better than the likes of Toku and Peter.
 
Don't understimate Peter. If he got tradepartners, he techs amazingly fast. I often choose him in my Spaceraces as a 2nd bad AI with the other one most often being Brennus, because then, he isn't the WE of anybody, and it's possible to trade with him often. Having mostly good other AIs, he's an awesome pet that can be bribed against almost anybody, and he always makes a good fight with a build-unit-ratio of 6 (source CIV Illustrated #1) . He also might have just not as much tradepartners with the warring and the other AIs being good, so one will always have enough techs to bribe him or trade with him. I'm not sure, if DGs peaceweight is bad enough, so that he'd also work, I also like Brennus very much though, because he starts with Mysticism and when choosing him as the first AI when setting up the map, he often creates a religion, which isolates him even more. DG ofc. would be better for Workerstealing, because he makes peace more easily, but taking one religion from the good AIs can lead to a love-feast one can join for crazy teching speeds and easy trading through friendly AIs. One can even turn around on Peter later, and bribe all AIs against him, probably after one has conquered Brennus, who will have probably had a lot land and who was totally backwards. Then, Peter has the strength to hold off up to three low-unit-prob AIs. The only thing that is bad about him is, that he's not easily to invade early, and he also isn't the best target for Workerstealing. If find the other advantages outweigh that greatly though.
 
Many factors make Mansa a great techer
-traits
-flavour
-UB (+10% :gold:)
-maybe even UU as it maintains power easier
-cottage spamming
-heavy tech trading

Another reason is that he runs a high research slider. I've had city investigate on him in a few games now, and he typically runs a 80-90% slider. All combined, this means that even with a small empire he can tech well.
 
Hello All
Having very recently submitted my first HoF entry (accepted/not yet published), I now feel entitled to post in this forum :). I've been away from the forums over last few months batting my head against Deity. There comes a point where you have to stop reading as much and just play.

So, finally!...after many failed attempts I've finally managed to get a legit Deity win. I didn't optimize anything in game settings, map type, chosen opponents, etc. other than just playing a decent start. It was just the latest in a long series of deity-beating attempts; with no intention at all to compete for HoF spots. The map I ended up with was a standard size continents script (2 continents, no islands), epic speed, 6 AI opponents randomly chosen, and my randomly chosen civ was Byz/Justinian. I was sandwiched between two lovely neighbors on the larger continent--Monty and Napoleon.

Anyways. I took out Napoleon, vassalled Monty, Elizabeth PV-ed to me, and I killed the last remaining AI, Hatty, on my continent. The other, smaller continent contained SB and Gilga-with Gilga vassalling to SB eventually. So, the game ended in a nuke-fest (well, I was the only one doing the nuking) against SB/Gilga. A domination coin-flip win the turn I accepted peace with SB...in like 1870, so....not very impressive but I'm proud of it. :lol:

With all that said I'll now get to the real reason I'm posting. I've been reading the fantastic G-Major 137 thread and I have two basic questions.

Q1) Regarding worker steals
Is this the norm? By this I mean do you HoF gods players almost always intend to steal workers? Or is this tactic mainly used when pursuing Dom/Conq/Space victory conditions? This is probably a very serious weakpoint of my game as my natural instinct is to play more and more cautiously as the difficulty level increases. Which means, I force myself into playing builder type games by being too cautious with the very earliest game decisions. Such as--worker first, build 4-6 cities, etc.--which just doesn't cut it on Deity, or Imm even.

Q2) Regarding very early wars
Do you guys generally plan to take out/permanently cripple 1-2 AIs very, very early? I mean like--warrior choke kinda early coupled with worker steals?

I know general questions like this are hard to answer and pardon the S&T-ness of my post (but that's where I come from so...:)). Besides, I know I'll get the best advice here anyways.

I just hope that one day I'm HoF-ey enough to have Seraiel name a hero after me!

Pangaea-Ouch. Sorry to hear about your situation. Hope all heals well.
 
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