The Hall of Players

[elitetroops]

I played Vanilla since the week it was released, but back in those days I thought slavery was bad, founding as many religions as possible was good, and I usually had a quick look in worldbuilder that there was oil somewhere near my starting location, because obviously the map was impossible to win if you didn't have it. In other words, never learned any strategy.

I seem to remember tanks were dealing collateral damage. Is that so?

 

[Seraiel]

Who's the new guy, and what has he done to Seraiel's avatar?

Have never played anything but BtS, but I've read that siege can kill units in vanilla (and/or Warlords). That's a pretty substantial difference.

Think you can also Oracle-slingshot CS without Math (or maybe it was CoL), so not as difficult as in BtS.

"The new guy" is a renaissance of the original Seraiel, whose name is supposed to be one of an angel.

The differences you mention are truely very substantial. Siege being able to kill is completely ridiculous, as it sometimes doubles the amount of killer-units. It's also the reason, why we still see those "all siege stacks" the AI sometimes attacks with .

CS without Maths is a difference, but the research paths in Vanilla and BtS differ so heavily, that I didn't notice it as a big advantage. Alphabet in Vanilla leads towards Literature (Aesthetics doesn't exist, it's a BtS tech) while Maths is the important path that leads towards Currency, Construction and Calendar, so it's i. e. not possible to oracle Currency while researching Alpha first and then trade for Meditation and Priesthood like adviseable in BtS, oracling Currency needs the research of probably Alpha and then Maths, which make it a lot more expensive. Civil Service however is directly available via Meditation -> PH -> CoL, but then, one needs to research basic techs or one needs Alpha on top again, making it almost as costly as in BtS.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I seem to remember tanks were dealing collateral damage. Is that so?

In Vanilla and in Warlords, Tanks can get Bombard Promotions, allowing them to deal collateral damage.

So, does EQM count by Difficulty Level? I.e. If you want to win a Deity EQM, you'd have to win either a Vanilla or a Warlords Space Race? Warlords Deity is definitely infamous for being the hardest variant of Civ 4 and so it is very rare to see Warlords of the Month Deity-level games.

 

[elitetroops]

Yes, deity vanilla or warlords game required for deity EQM. Vanilla seems to be by far more popular, only 3 of the deity #1 Space Races are Warlords.

I have no aspirations for deity EQM, but some kind of EQM at some point, maybe. Immortal Warlords Space Race could be challenging enough.

 

[Pangaea]

As usual I find it hopeless to search for anything on this forum, so I'm asking here instead. How does the city gifting to the AI work? I'm playing a game where I probably need to gift away a city or 3, but right now everything is redded out in the screen. How close must the cities be, can they be on different continents (technically), or only the same land area?

I seem to recall something about 15 (?) tiles (diagonal counting 1.5), but maybe this was from the capital? My closest city is closer than 15 tiles away, but I can't gift anything.

Sometimes it would be good to burn down your own stuff

 

[yyeah]

@ Pangaea

Since iam making my personal notes today i think i can help.
Probably this is what you are looking for.

Time for another Tips and Tricks Lesson!
(...)
When the AI has 3 cities or less, you can use Ctrl to open the Trade Menu at any time and gift the AI any of your cities except your capital.
This is a good way to get +4 "fair trade relations" if you have a Settler to spare, or if you want an AI city close to your capital for purposes.

Once an AI has 4 cities or more, they won't take just any city as a gift.
If the AI isn't in Financial Trouble (expenses > 60% of income generally), they will take any city that is less than 10 tiles from one of their cities.
That means you need to count the tiles from your border city to their border city. (diagonal counts as 1.5 tiles, if the final distance is a fraction like 8.5 tiles or 9.5 tiles round down to 8 or 9 respectively)

You can't gift cities that are close to AI cities if they are on separate landmasses like islands.
That means your island city could be 5 tiles away from an AI city on the main continent and the AI won't take the island city.

And finally, if an AI has ever owned a city at some point in the past, they will always be willing to accept it back as a gift.
(...)

 

[Pangaea]

You can't gift cities that are close to AI cities if they are on separate landmasses like islands.
That means your island city could be 5 tiles away from an AI city on the main continent and the AI won't take the island city.

Ffffffffffffffffffffff

Means I'm in royally big trouble. Thanks for the post though. Frustrating that there appears to be a hard cutoff if cities are on technically different continents, even if they are two tiles apart.

 

[Pangaea]

Okay, what in the holiest of f***s?

"You have built a Palace in..."

Errr. WHAT?!!

I'm seriously wondering if the game borked out HARD on me, because I pay a lot of attention, and suddenly a Palace was built in an extremely strange place, and the Globe Theatre in what WAS the capital. I've no idea how the hell that happened?

 

[Pangaea]

Actually, I see what must have happened. I must have intended to built Wealth in the capital, and mistakenly clicked a line too high, hitting the GT. And the same in that odd place, and hit the leftmost icon there, which is the Palace. Incredibly strange error, and with pretty severe consequences for the research rate, though I can thankfully rebuild the palace in the actual capital in only two turns, so the loss won't be as horrendous as it might have been otherwise.

Spinoff idea: What are the strangest mistakes you have made while playing Civ 4?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Spinoff idea: What are the strangest mistakes you have made while playing Civ 4?

lol - that's a good one. I once lost a Marathon Time game (Ancient Start) with about 20 turns to go when the only AIs crappy little Ice City culture flipped to me because of Sushi giving me a Conquest win!!

 

[Seraiel]

This was the awesome city-placement I had in Replay #3. It's quite hard to top in terms of stupidity:



Plz pay attention to the three cities I planted in the upper right corner in the Jungle in order to grab land . They're so far away, that the capital is not even on the screenshot, and I thought "wow, what kickazz cities, I need to have them. All Grassland, a River and strong sources of (Bananas) " . Pay special attention, that the most northern city, the one that is the furthest away and that's next to the borders of CRE-Hatty is planned to be the HE-city . I thought "great city, settled on a Plains-Hill and so many hills. I just need to farm all of that Grassland and I can work them. "
There are other "jewels" that can be found on that sreenshot, like the Pigs + Bananas city in the west, that is settled with the strong food in the 2nd ring directly next to AI Frederick, but the city south of it is even better, it's completely without food . Very similar, all cities to towards the east. 1st one claims Gems, but has 0 food, the city planned next to it again has the food in the Jungle and in the 2nd ring directly next to an AI to be able to work the awesome Marble and the city again east of it again has no food, but "hey, that city has Gems + 3 times Silks! It's awesome" .

I'm not sure, what WastinTime thought, when he reviewed the posts of my writeup. Anyhow, I libbed Medicine in that game. Ofc. this is not because Incans are OP or because of Marathon, I'm just such an extremely awesome player .

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, this time I need advice, so WastinTime, yyeah, Pangaea, Dhoomstriker, Elitetroops, everybody else pay attention:

It looks like Jastrow showed play from a completely different level of CIV when I played GOTM against him. I also re-read parts of GM-137 and see, that I also really had a completely different level of play, before my 3 months hiatus. Let's try to get me back to my level.
I've started a Small Marathon Spacerace but chose only 3 AIs as opponents and not the maximum number of 4. I did this, because on all maps I tried the past days, I was boxed and it really was not funny, I could have founded a bad 2nd city and 3rd city already would have been a problem. Then however, when I reduced the AIs to 3, I got this map...



My thoughts (about the underlined things I'm unsure, but comments on everything are really appreciated) :

• Very uncommonly huge space towards the east, I could settle as much as I want. Peaceful expansion is not as effective as war though, so I'll only found 3 cities and go for Elepult. I know that WastinTime would prefer HAs and attacking earlier, but I have only bad experiences with them, except once. Elepult is 100% safe, I don't need to beat 695 AD, Frederick isn't a strong leader early game, this may be not perfect but it's ok. Much land to settle at least is not negative, as it means I can settle it after having conquered Lincoln.
• City 2 will claim the Cow Rice-spot because it's a decent spot with double food. I'll get the wet rice from T150 onwards because of the 2nd pop of the capital, so I'll probably build no Monument and hope for a Religion. Not sure, if I shouldn't let Lincoln settle this spot.
• City 3 will go and claim the Stone-spot. I don't like that spot at all, it's not strong for me imo., but I hope that I can make Lincoln build the Mids by gifting him the Stone. My research is a direct beeline towards Alpha via AH and Writing, skipping everything else, as I can get everything else with Alpha, and Alpha has the price of Pottery and Bronzeworking. I found TW in a hut, so could build roads to Lincoln, that will probably have to wait though because of Workerturns. I'll improve the Wheat, the Stone and the Gold and will only let the city grow to size 3. It doesn't even need a Granary, because it will have almost no surplus, at least not until it produced enough Workers and Catapults.
• All other cities planned with food in the first ring (was different first, but then I remembered how horrible not having food from the start on Marathon is) or with the food in that kind, that another city, that I settle first, can claim it.
• I'll only let the capital grow to size 3 before the 1st Settler. Size 4 with Elephants would be more efficient, but I fear Lincoln getting the Cow Rice spot. Before city 3, I'll grow to size 5 to get the Oasis and the Elephants aswell.
• Lizzy founded Christianity, this is a disadvantage. She's probably behind Lincoln so further away, so I maybe won't get a religion early. Also, Mansa already is christian aswell, this could make him trade a lot, I prefer him having his own religion ^^ .
• Very few trees on the map and only Furs as a 2nd Luxury, but map is still good.
• No real spot for a GP-Farm. Producing GPs won't get easy, as I planned most cities only with a single food. Everything else would have ment losing land, though it might be good, because I got so much of it.
• [EDIT]Update: Lincoln has improved Horses, no way to Workersteal from him. Don't know if really good games are even possible without Workerstealing

Tia, I think this might get interesting for everyone. It shall basically be like a discussion round .

 

[Seraiel]

I've only played a little further, but a lot has changed. I found a city of Lincoln claiming the Cows as I already feared, but it led me to adjusting city-placement, and here, one can already see, how much better one can play, if thinking more about it:



Red cities = adjusted ones

• Eastern Gold-city now claims the Gold in the first Ring. I found this important, because I thought about settling it early because I only started with 1 Gold. It might be an ok 3rd city, though I then think settling Stone-Wheat-Sheep would still be better. Maybe a 4th city before Elepult.
• Northeastern Cow-city now with food in the 1st ring. Much better.
• Southeastern Deer+Furs city 1N, thereby now has some shared riverside Grasslands. Much better than the Coast before.
• Most eastern Wheat-Cows city now claims Cows in withoug borderpop, it's designated to use the Wheat and the Cows shall go to the city north of it, but I'll found it earlier than the Incense-city, and then it can profit from having the Cows.
• thinking about founding Sheep Fish in the south first, it has decent GP-potential and will also be able to produce some units for Elepult.
• Don't really know which city to settle 3rd, maybe Lincoln will make the decision again. Most valuable spot would be the 3 food spot directly in the north, but that one has so mange Jungles, almost no trees, no hills in the 1st ring... But Rice through 2nd borderpop of capital... only real alternatives are Stone-Wheat because of many to help producing some Workers or FP-Gold because of .
  [*]weak 2nd and 3rd city, no matter where I found it
  

 

[yyeah]

I though that i will loose by 1-2T, though that voteing is after 10T. And i had to move Settler and settle T2 -> and it was close to galactic disaster.
But I was wrong !. 4T ahead.

Spoiler :

What a night .

 

[Seraiel]

I again played further, but now I'm gonna make a longer stop, because I either need advice, or I need to think.

I completed the Settler at size 3 and settled the Stone after finding, that the spot is actually really good if taking the Sheep into the equasion. Then, the spot has +7 , +4 with working the Stone and the 2nd Gold which also is available if the city has a borderpop, making it actually really the best spot. Improved the Ivory with the Worker, built a Road on it aswell to connect the capital with the river towards the other civs, Settler moved to spot and settled, Lincoln was already waiting with a Chariot, ofc. in the wrong spot one tile of the coast not claiming the Gold , started a Library in the capital and the 2nd city. Capital to grow and for research, 2nd city because it'll also have a Gold so for research and maybe it could even be useful for the borderpop.
Had luck, Taoism from Lincoln spread towards 2nd city, so borderpop in 30T from there. Had bad luck: Random event destroyed the Ivory. Improved the Wheat with the initial Worker, growed the capital to size 4 and decided for a 2nd Worker though I only have 2 cities, because I needed to reimprove the Ivory, and improving the Stone would take forever, while I could also build a Road to get a trade-connection with that city. 2nd city growed size 2, capital size 5, decided for a Settler in the capital and a 3rd Worker from the 2nd city . I made that decision, because I was soon before Alpha so I'd get BW and I really have enough work for the Workers, and now that the capital is size 5, it at least can produce the 2nd Settler really fast.
Bad luck, Mansa Musa went for Priesthood, Oracle soon later, no idea what he took, I guess Agriculture or similar . He also would have gotten Monotheism religion, but when he oracled he switched away from that tech for reasons I don't know and Lincoln got a 2nd religion instead of Mansa becoming isolated . Well, at least Lincoln also built SH, so he's gonna get a GP and can build a Shrine for me.

Now I have 3 Workers and well improved land, directly before Alpha which will get me all missing techs, Stone connected and already traded to Lincoln so he builds the Pyramids for me, 2nd Settler almost ready. I know, that this is actually a very slow start from me with only having 2 cities at almost 2000 BC, but I hope to catch up and believe my choices were good. Maybe not the 3rd Worker... No idea where to settle the 3rd city, thinking about Fish-Sheep because it'd be the strongest available, but if I want to have the northern Banana-Cows-Rice I should settle it now imo. . Difficult to develop that city with no green hill in the 1st ring, also no Forests.
Made the screenshot so you can see the other empires. Mansa has double Gems, so I can get all ancient happy-resources :

 

[Seraiel]

@ yyeah:

1220 diplomatic victory on Boreal is outstanding imo, unless it's Marathon ^^ .

 

[yyeah]

Large/Normal

Yea thats preety good date i supose. Thats why i just had to shere it ... iam just too happy .
Allmoust everything worked out how i wanted to, i meen, overall strategy witch i wanted to play.

Edit.
Toomorow i write about concept a bit.
I meen today but a bit later

Edit2
Sry Seraiel i will look on your posts when i weak up just too tired after this game going

 

[Seraiel]

I'm lost somehow. The land that I can block is much more than can ever settle. Mansa will produce Galleys, and the only way to block them would be by closing borders and settling the most northern coastal city, which ofc. is a choice. Lincoln probably won't have any coastal cities and Lizzy needs forever from where she is. Also: If I go Elepult, what exactly is my advantage? Ok, I get Lincoln's cities, but he's a Deity AI that I can get to friendly, he'd make a good tradepartner for long. I'll miss the Mids, but why not really REX? Chop Granaries, build nothing but Settlers and a few Workers, chop-whip as many Settlers as possible, try to really get those 13 cities... But then, Mansa is the one that will probably claim the Marble, so I don't know how to build the MoM... I'm not sure anymore that this map is really good. Maybe it'd be much better if I had less land while the AI had more, then the AI would spend its resources on Settlers and I could Elepult-conquer their the cities. If they have more cities, there's more for me to conquer. I just can't believe that peaceful REX will ever be able to compare with Conquest, though having an additional, friendly Deity-tradepartner should imo. not be underestimated.

[EDIT]

kovacsflo has several Spaceraces where he completely peacefully REXed, and the dates are very competetive. Maybe they are, because Cottage-spam Democracy approach is better than Corps, but it'd be interesting to hear his opinion. flo, anybody else, write something... It's midnight in America, what's up with WastinTime and Kaitzilla. Also, Pangaea could be almost awake already again. Do I really need to post in S&T to get some advice?

 

[elitetroops]

Large/Normal

For a moment there I got worried about my (not so impressive) large/epic slot. That was the first deity game I ever won, please don't take it... No, really, if you wan to, go ahead. This is after all a competition. Might give me incentive to complete some other UN game, especially if you post some nice strategy next.

Seraiel, I'm not the best with Space Games, but I'm a bit confused when you say small/marathon and 3AI. Do you mean tiny? Minimum number of opponents on small is 4.

From what you posted, it looks like me that you could try the Rex approach, especially if it is something you haven't done in a long time. Maybe with a later break out to grab some more land just before demo and cottage spam? Always good to mix things up every now and then. If it doesn't lead to desired results, then it's a learning experience anyway.

It seems to me that kovacsflo's peaceful spacegames were set up with this strategy in mind. He used map scripts with lots of land and with continent type landmasses for foreign trade (and I assume also to not be a potential target of every AI in the game). Like Global Highlands. It might be hard to achieve similar results with that strategy on a pangaea type map. What mapscript/settings is your game?

 

[Seraiel]

Yes, I ment tiny, I got confused. I already hold the #1 slot for Small so it would make absolutely no sense of me playing with that setting (though don't think, that I not accidentally owned my own victory already ) .

The problem is that I actually never played a real REX 'til now. I've seen players like shakabrade REX to up to 14 cities 'til 1 AD on normal speed, that's true REX. Most I ever got I think was something like 11 on a Large Boreal map, though that is actually really good, Boreal has some havy advantages, like 4-6* Deer-spots, an almost unlimited number of Chops and I also workerstole in that game. The map btw. is Terra, not Pangaea. I thought you'd assume this, because I wrote that I set up the map normally, and normal for Spaceraces means Terra, tropical, low sealevel for me. Should have posted a screen, so here:



The advice to mix things up once in a while I find very interesting, because that's also something that I'm not aware of having done ever. I usually learn one approach by someone and then try to perfect that approach. I really suspect though, that the early Democracy + Cottagespam approach really could be superior, so I also wrote PMs to kovacsflo and bcool in which I friendly ask them to tell about their experiences with that approach.
If I mixed things up though, I'd find it very hard to learn from it, as the only comparisons I have are my 1120AD Spacerace on Small, where I conquered the whole map with less than 30 units but still was very n00b compared to GM-137, and GM-137, in which I played on a level that I'm trying to reach again now. I think that my result would automatically be between those games, because I got a lot more knowledge now, but one is slower on smaller maps because of less trades. Only if my result were massively below 1000 AD, I could prove, that peaceful REX is competetive and that the Democracy approach is better.

Thx a lot though elitetroops . If noone else answers, I'll really try out the Democracy approach myself. Worst case, I invest 100h in finding out that it's actually inferior, and that bcool being competive with it is because he's a better player. Best I find out, that it's super-mega-imba, then I'll keep it a secret and own you all in the next Gauntlet .