The Hinge of Fate - Playtest/Release Thread

[JPetroski]

But how to I get them to operate on the 'Skies Over Europe' day time map? At least, I haven't figured out how to do so as of yet,

Those that are allowed to go to the high daylight map can press "n" and use native transport

 

[techumseh]

I had 2 turns to wipe out the BEF after capturing Calais, which was plenty of time.

 

[JPetroski]

I had 2 turns to wipe out the BEF after capturing Calais, which was plenty of time.

I'll bet you didn't stop your panzers and leave it to the Luftwaffe

 

[Dadais]

Took time while installing the new fun computer to look at this.

First impression is a stunning impression facing the map you are proposing. This is huge, Europa and North America seem alive, and I must say your use of wasteland in the saharian desert makes it an incredibly beautiful place, and we're also enchanted by the black forest in germany.
I must admit your choices in cities proposition is definitly decisive, I may guess very efficient. Truely impressive.

I'm only quickly wondering why Viipurii is neutral when I assumed it to be conquered (and emptyed) by the red army at that point, and why french protectorate in Liban and Syria are depicted while the british palestinian one is not. Maybe population wise or on your strategy considerations ? Answer or understanding may come to me while playing it.

Time is lacking, not event touching a single city or unit within an hour, and it will probably be for even more. Just, at the moment, WAHOU and well done !

 

[JPetroski]

I'm only quickly wondering why Viipurii is neutral when I assumed it to be conquered (and emptyed) by the red army at that point, and why french protectorate in Liban and Syria are depicted while the british palestinian one is not. Maybe population wise or on your strategy considerations ? Answer or understanding may come to me while playing it.

!

If Viipurii is supposed to be part of the USSR at the start it's simply an error that I can correct going forward.

As to Palestine, it's kind of a backwater in this game. No real need for other cities. And in any event, most of the placed cities came from @McMonkey 's "Fortress Europe." I added some i felt were needed, but didn't add to areas I felt were unnecessary.

 

[techumseh]

I'll bet you didn't stop your panzers and leave it to the Luftwaffe

I sent Goering off to be the commandant of the Berlin zoo long ago. Still, pushing the British into the sea once you've captured Calais is dead easy.

 

[techumseh]

Schwerer Kreuzer and Zerstorer at 0,61 fail to move to the western Atlantic map. This is the message:

...cenarios\Hinge of Fate\LuaRulesEvents\keyPressEvents.lua:112: bad argument #2 to 'teleportUnit' (civ.tile expected, got nil)
stack traceback:
[C]: in function 'civ.teleportUnit'
...cenarios\Hinge of Fate\LuaRulesEvents\keyPressEvents.lua:112: in upvalue 'atlanticCrossing'
...cenarios\Hinge of Fate\LuaRulesEvents\keyPressEvents.lua:553: in field '?'
...cenarios\Hinge of Fate\LuaRulesEvents\keyPressEvents.lua:652: in function 'keyPressEvents.doKeyPress'

(edit) It appears if I move back from the edge of the map, the transfer to the western map works normally.

 

[techumseh]

Early June: Took Paris, pretty tough fight for an 'open city'. That AA unit is a bugger, I doesn't seem to appear in the Civilopedia, so I'm not sure what it's stats are. Took Le Havre and Cherbourg with a bomber and a para - pretty lightly defended IMHO.
Late June: Captured Brest the same way. I expected a better defense here, as it is the base of the French Atlantic Fleet. I took the armistice, nice to have an option there. The whole thing is neatly done. Bravo. Major damage from Bomber Command's night bombing- in mid 1940? I think this ahistorical - I believe the RAF only got an effective campaign underway by mid-1942. There doesn't seem to be an effective defense. I have plenty of Me-110s, but they're not based at the targets, so can only react after the damage is done. I'm shooting down all the Whitley bombers, but it doesn't seem to affect the number that attack again the next turn.

I'm not bothering with the Battle of Britain or Sea Lion. I'm focusing on expanding and improving my fighter force (Fw-190s) and motorizing my army (lots of trucks). I find the motorization of the heavy artillery to be an effective offensive tactic, so I'll build as many of those as I can too. Then hit Russia as early as possible. The Scenario League will hold its breath!

 

[techumseh]

How do I upgrade my Pz IIs? manually?

 

[Dadais]

If Viipurii is supposed to be part of the USSR at the start it's simply an error that I can correct going forward.

I guess that's debattable :

(If correction to my word is needed, please do )
In History,
The winter war if not mistaken saw its end in march-april 40 (thus just before the beginning of The Hinge Of Fate), where a peace treaty was signed, giving carelia isthmus and (after checking) Ladoga lake shores to urss (meaning Sortavala was soviet too).
Many peoplefled the city of viipurii, and this loss held big effects on finlandese public oppinion, feeding resentment.

Some says this was a strong reason, with allied uselessness then alliance with the soviets, which led Finland to join with the seemingly unstoppable axis to reclaim its land.

.

On your masterpiece side, is that really important to unbalance this little thing too toward germany's ennemies after all the clockwork you did put in ?
After all, the finland tech is always needed to portray the reich diplomatic and propaganda effort in Finland.
Decision is up to you, and clearly, It only tickled me because of a map I saw not too long ago.
As a fact, there's hardly anyone bothered by these cities beeing finlandese, and, playing your scenario, I won't be one of them for sure !
I'll just enjoy struggling, far from you experts players levels

 

[CurtSibling]

@techumseh
Not removing the UK from the war might have future consequences, but a strong air fighter and mobile ground force will be handy for the later war flood of Allied attacks!

 

[JPetroski]

How do I upgrade my Pz IIs? manually?

Yes you build different tanks. The Pz II can be useful for range on the Russian steppe, or for bolstering France and Yugoslavia against Partisans.

 

[JPetroski]

I sent Goering off to be the commandant of the Berlin zoo long ago. Still, pushing the British into the sea once you've captured Calais is dead easy.

That's actually after beefing it up a few times as well. But then, you focused on it. Other players might not. I've been able to destroy it when I intend on destroying it too.

(edit) It appears if I move back from the edge of the map, the transfer to the western map works normally.

Ah - so there must be an error in my calculations / math that isn't accounting for the non-existent tile it was trying to move to. I would beg for help on a way to have an elseif the tile it wants to find is "nil" that there's simply an error message that says "Units can't move from the exact edge of the map, move one space back and try again." Or perhaps I could update the map text to advise this (or do both).

Major damage from Bomber Command's night bombing- in mid 1940? I think this ahistorical - I believe the RAF only got an effective campaign underway by mid-1942.

By mid-1942 you'll see there are significantly more bombers The RAF had made a point to bomb German targets since '39 at Wilhelmshaven. Kind of an interesting source that has some highlights: https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/raf-bomber-command-during-the-second-world-war you'll note in 1941 included this text: "Setbacks in the Battle of the Atlantic meant a major effort was needed against German warships and U-boats." Inflicting similar setbacks will cause you relief.

Ladoga lake shores to urss (meaning Sortavala was soviet too).

I mean if they're mistakes I'll correct them. I don't think they're game changing problems for anyone playing a current game, but I'll update them for the next version. It's a few clicks in civitas and the deletion of a few rounds of code - not a big deal at all. Thanks for catching it

Not removing the UK from the war might have future consequences, but a strong air fighter and mobile ground force will be handy for the later war flood of Allied attacks

In my last game I really shot myself in the foot trying to take out the RAF. While I've managed to do it in some playtests, I guess I got some bad RNG during my playthrough as the fighters wouldn't come out and take the bait to play. I spent something like 30,000 - 40,000 fuel barrels on Fliegerkorps trying to ensure a "win" and wound up not having that for other places. That really hurt in Russia. I think Techumseh has a good idea to ignore Britain for now (though, it will mean he'll have to contend with them on the periphery). 6 extra Kampfgruppe in Russia would make quite a difference, as would a few extra Fliegerkorps committed to tackling Malta.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

...cenarios\Hinge of Fate\LuaRulesEvents\keyPressEvents.lua:112: bad argument #2 to 'teleportUnit' (civ.tile expected, got nil)
stack traceback:
[C]: in function 'civ.teleportUnit'
...cenarios\Hinge of Fate\LuaRulesEvents\keyPressEvents.lua:112: in upvalue 'atlanticCrossing'
...cenarios\Hinge of Fate\LuaRulesEvents\keyPressEvents.lua:553: in field '?'
...cenarios\Hinge of Fate\LuaRulesEvents\keyPressEvents.lua:652: in function 'keyPressEvents.doKeyPress'

local function atlanticCrossing(unit)
   
    for unitOnTile in unit.location.units do
        if unitOnTile.location.x <= 4 and unitOnTile.location.y <= 186 and unitOnTile.location.z == 0 then
            civ.teleportUnit(unitOnTile,civ.getTile(unit.location.x + 280,unit.location.y,3)) -- line 112

I'm guessing that what has happened here is that more than one unit was on the same tile, and so the "unit" was teleported before the "unitOnTile", rendering "unit.location.x" to be ~280, and so the "unit.location.x+280" is ~560, well outside the map boundary.

Either replace "unit.location" with "unitOnTile.location", or check that the unitOnTile is a sea unit, and teleport each sea unit individually.

 

[tootall_2012]

Hi John,

I just want to say beforehand that I’m having a real blast at this extremely well made scenario. So far, it's meeting all the expectations I had of it.

All the same, I just wanted to provide some feedback/observations which have caused me, at least, some difficulties in assessing my short and long term goals and objectives:

The war at sea: To date I’ve managed to sink 13 destroyers, 3 Light Cruisers, 2 Heavy cruisers, 3 battleships and more importantly 35 Cargo ships (for an average of 4 per turn). I've lost 18 subs in exchange.

But unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea if I’m winning or losing the battle. There’s no parameter for me to gauge my success or failure. Prior to the war, the Kriegsmarine would have known how much merchant shipping the British had and their shipyards production capacity.

The whole point of the German campaign was to sink sufficient shipping to starve Britain into submission. Churchill even wrote that of all the facets of the war, it’s the Atlantic battle that caused him the most concern and worries.

I don’t know if this is the case or not but in essence it seems like it doesn’t matter how successful my U-boat campaign may be or not, the cargo ships will just keep coming. Is this correct?

As such, is there a hidden agenda or threshold for the Germans to meet? If so, would it be possible to put in place some kind of tracking mechanism on your progress?

Battle of Britain: I did have a go at my own BoB. As such, I laid waste to most of Britain’s cities Housing and Productive tiles on the day and night bombing maps with my bombers, killing 2 Whirlwind night fighters in the process.

From the start of the battle, I destroyed 6 Spitfire’s in Dover when I pummeled that city with 2 dozen shells. I killed the 2 Polish fighters and 2 or 3 Spitfires more which had come out to attack some of my own exposed fighter and Stukas which were operating in southern England .

In fact by the beginning of turn 9, there wasn’t a single British fighter to be found anywhere within the area delimited by Plymouth - Bristol - Coventry - London – Dover (overall England, from the start of the game, has lost 20 Hurricanes, 15 Spitfires, 4 Whirlwind and 2 Polish fighters).

Nevertheless at the beginning of turn 10 I've been advised that I had failed to meet my objective of defeating the RAF. Yet similarly to the war at sea I have no idea what my criteria for success were supposed to be. Was I supposed to only kill fighters and if so how many? 10, 15, 20, 30 or more? And shouldn’t the fact that I swept the RAF from southern England count for something (in essence, didn't I, at least, partially lay down the conditions for Sea Lion)?

As such, is it possible to provide a little more detail as to the victory conditions for winning the battle? Perhaps have a score board similar to Napoleon with the navies?

Strategic Bombing: I tend to agree with Tech that the early British bombing campaign is too strong. After 9 turns Bomber Command has already managed to fire bomb, Dusseldorf, Hamburg, Koln, Nurnberg, Rostock, Stuttgart and Berlin twice, and this at the height of the Battle of Britain.

Each time those attacks on Berlin forced me to immediately switch that city’s production to rebuild it’s Housing District thereby losing precious production, in order to avoid the city potentially losing multiple citizens to starvation if I kept producing a unit instead (especially since Berlin doesn’t start with any food surplus).

I think it’s well know that the initial 1940 bombings did very minimal damage to Germany, nothing even remotely compared to what I’ve already experienced to date.

It’s your scenario of course, so the decision is entirely yours, but I personally would recommend to tone it down somewhat.

Railroad costs: I think the cost of 500 fuel to upgrade each RR tile is rather excessive. The map has 16000 tiles and assuming only 2.5% of those have roads that accounts for roughly 400 upgradable tiles. At 500 fuel each that would cost over 200,000 fuel to upgrade.

Just building a RR network from Liege - Reims - Paris - Caen and Posen - Bydgoszcz - Warsaw to increase traffic flow, a total of only 26 tiles, would cost 13,000 fuel or 17% of my current stock of 77,000.

Similarly extending a similar RR network from Warsaw to Moscow, 38 tiles, would cost 19,000 fuel, which combined with the previous cost would account for 42% of its fuel stocks.

I’m sure building these communication networks were an expensive enterprise but I doubt it took half of Germany’s fuel reserves. Germany did manage to extend railroad lines into the north, center and south of Russia to supply its troops and still managed to conduct major offensives in its first 3 years.

Would you consider reducing the cost? Personally, I think 100 to 150 fuel per tile would be more reasonable (even at 150 the aforementioned 54 tiles would still cost 8100 fuel or the equivalent of 1 ½ Kampfgruppes, no small price to pay).

Rotterdam: once the city has been damaged by strategic bombing it appears as though it’s no longer able to build either Civilian Population or Housing District improvements in the city. Meaning the cities terrain will be permanently damaged throughout the war. Is this intentional?

Villacoublay airbase: the city situated on the night map near Paris is starving. I believe this is because you placed the city on a factory terrain tile which produces 0 food, as opposed to the usual airfield terrain tile which generate 4.

Of course, I understand that some of my feedback might not necessarily be easy to address (in particular the BOB or War at Sea), but I thought they were worth mentioning.

For now, having failed at establishing the conditions for Sea Lion I’m going to redirect the bulk of my forces East and some towards the Balkans in anticipation of things to come.

Great job so far!

 

[JPetroski]

But unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea if I’m winning or losing the battle. There’s no parameter for me to gauge my success or failure. Prior to the war, the Kriegsmarine would have known how much merchant shipping the British had and their shipyards production capacity.

I don’t know if this is the case or not but in essence it seems like it doesn’t matter how successful my U-boat campaign may be or not, the cargo ships will just keep coming. Is this correct?

As such, is there a hidden agenda or threshold for the Germans to meet? If so, would it be possible to put in place some kind of tracking mechanism on your progress?

The way I've made the Battle of the Atlantic meaningful is that Britain doesn't get reinforcement units that make your life horrible. The bombing campaign is directly tied into the Battle of the Atlantic - Britain gets her reinforcements for Bomber Command directly from the ships that reach England. Your fight in Afrika will largely involve reinforcements that they receive when a ship reaches Malta.

I hadn't considered a mechanism to flat out get them to surrender. I was pleased with myself for not having to resort to a gold cost being added/deducted lol. However, I really like this idea. It wouldn't be hard to institute a counter where, say, if you managed to destroy enough shipping by a certain turn, England would capitulate. It's not currently in the game though, and that counter would have to be really high and completed before the end of "the happy time." I could put it in the event update I'm planning for this weekend so you could play with it (you'll have sported the Brits a head start of course) but it won't break your game.

Nevertheless at the beginning of turn 10 I've been advised that I had failed to meet my objective of defeating the RAF. Yet similarly to the war at sea I have no idea what my criteria for success were supposed to be. Was I supposed to only kill fighters and if so how many? 10, 15, 20, 30 or more? And shouldn’t the fact that I swept the RAF from southern England count for something (in essence, didn't I, at least, partially lay down the conditions for Sea Lion)?

Well, the polygon counts England as a total and probably could be reduced to just the southern part, but I would be surprised to find the Brits put many units up north and didn't have them concentrated in the south. I'm not certain you cleared 3 or less fighters in England at this point. I did load up a Turn 9 save and confirmed the event is working as intended. Perhaps the polygon should be re-drawn or perhaps you just didn't kill as many fighters as you had thought? It's hard to say.

As such, is it possible to provide a little more detail as to the victory conditions for winning the battle? Perhaps have a score board similar to Napoleon with the navies?

A leaderboard would be a good idea.

I think the cost of 500 fuel to upgrade each RR tile is rather excessive. The map has 16000 tiles and assuming only 2.5% of those have roads that accounts for roughly 400 upgradable tiles. At 500 fuel each that would cost over 200,000 fuel to upgrade.

I'm a little hesitant to change this because one thing I'm definitely going for in this scenario is "there is so much to do, and not enough resources for everything."

Rotterdam: once the city has been damaged by strategic bombing it appears as though it’s no longer able to build either Civilian Population or Housing District improvements in the city. Meaning the cities terrain will be permanently damaged throughout the war. Is this intentional?

With the way the strategic bombing mechanism works, you're not going to be able to build a civilian population in a city that isn't linked to the strat bombing mechanism without producing an error, so, yes, it's intentional, but if you think the fire at night is too distracting, I could provide a cosmetic fix.

Villacoublay airbase: the city situated on the night map near Paris is starving. I believe this is because you placed the city on a factory terrain tile which produces 0 food, as opposed to the usual airfield terrain tile which generate 4.

Thank you for catching that - I didn't account for Villacoublay being the same tile that would create a factory tile if you built one in Paris. Stupid oversight on my part. I'll have to change the factory location in the next update.

 

[tootall_2012]

The way I've made the Battle of the Atlantic meaningful is that Britain doesn't get reinforcement units that make your life horrible. The bombing campaign is directly tied into the Battle of the Atlantic - Britain gets her reinforcements for Bomber Command directly from the ships that reach England. Your fight in Afrika will largely involve reinforcements that they receive when a ship reaches Malta.

I hadn't considered a mechanism to flat out get them to surrender. I was pleased with myself for not having to resort to a gold cost being added/deducted lol. However, I really like this idea. It wouldn't be hard to institute a counter where, say, if you managed to destroy enough shipping by a certain turn, England would capitulate. It's not currently in the game though, and that counter would have to be really high and completed before the end of "the happy time." I could put it in the event update I'm planning for this weekend so you could play with it (you'll have sported the Brits a head start of course) but it won't break your game.

Yes, once American shipyards started mass producing Liberty Ships the total merchant tonnage by the end of the war far outnumbered the total tonnage sank by the U-boats.

Well, the polygon counts England as a total and probably could be reduced to just the southern part, but I would be surprised to find the Brits put many units up north and didn't have them concentrated in the south. I'm not certain you cleared 3 or less fighters in England at this point. I did load up a Turn 9 save and confirmed the event is working as intended. Perhaps the polygon should be re-drawn or perhaps you just didn't kill as many fighters as you had thought? It's hard to say.

During play tests, I always save a copy of each turn I play. I went back to the end of turn 9 to check through the Cheat Menu and found that Britain had 18 Hurricanes remaining in it's inventory (no Spitfires) but only 8 of them were actually in Britain and all based in Edinburgh. I still don't know if that would warrant a victory or not though.

I'm a little hesitant to change this because one thing I'm definitely going for in this scenario is "there is so much to do, and not enough resources for everything."

It's just that this is a very big map and moving units from one end of the other on a slow road network tends to make the game longer. Hence my request to reduce the cost so that a player could increase the size of the RR network.

With the way the strategic bombing mechanism works, you're not going to be able to build a civilian population in a city that isn't linked to the strat bombing mechanism without producing an error, so, yes, it's intentional, but if you think the fire at night is too distracting, I could provide a cosmetic fix.

No, that's fine. I was just checking to see if this was intended or not.

Thank you for catching that - I didn't account for Villacoublay being the same tile that would create a factory tile if you built one in Paris. Stupid oversight on my part. I'll have to change the factory location in the next update.

I may have to open up the cheat menu to change the terrain tile for this city otherwise it risks disappearing due to starvation.

 

[JPetroski]

@tootall_2012 more to come later but as you actually made a point to wipe the RAF from southern England, got hit with bad RNG, so to speak, with them all going to Edinborough, and have convinced me to change that, you can add this triggerEvents file to your Hinge of Fate/LuaTriggerEvents folder and you'll have a polygon that achieves the destruction of the RAF. You'll have to start from Turn 9 and I'm not sure how far you are, but you have achieved what you were supposed to achieve.

Edit - this simply changes the polygon to southern England (really, from North Wales down).

I have to run but I thought I'd get this out for you quickly.

 

[techumseh]

I certainly agree with the idea of "there is so much to do, and not enough resources for everything." However, strategic movement is somewhat limited in HoF. In some wargames I've played, that's defined as movement that doesn't involve combat, usually over long distances, and mainly conducted by sea or rail. Is there a way to include something along this line?

I am finally beginning to understand the relationship between the convoys and the RAF bombing. I've clearly mismanaged my U-boat campaign, to the great sorrow of the German people.

Based on Tootall's reports, I have also underestimated the uses of the heavy artillery. Who'da thunk it was so useful to sink battleships and win the Battle of Britain? Seriously, combined with the mobility of truck units, this may well be a war-winning weapon.

 

[JPetroski]

I'm planning on getting an update out today that will be save-game compatible. It will include a functioning Battle of the Atlantic forces Britain to surrender mechanism. With one small tweak to your local parameter file, it can work flawlessly with the game you're already playing, so if you want to try and starve Britain into submissions, attempt to destroy 400 British cargo ships by Turn 80. More to come later but feel free to continue playing - no need to wait for the patch.