The Historical Basis for Catalonian Independence

[Angst]

What you're listing as reasons are not nationalist reasons, you are aware of that, right?

 

[JohannaK]

I am.

 

[Angst]

Great I just didn't understand that "no".

 

[JohannaK]

The difference between you and them is that you speak Danish AND English.

 

[Peck of Arabia]

No. They fought to speak in Catalan because most knew no other language. And because they hated more the centralist Bourbon (who suppressed all Catalan liberties, as said before) than the Hapsburg candidate which would have most probably maintained the the personal union status. If only the Allies had maintained their promise to keep Catalan liberties...

With all due respect, the War of the Spanish Succession had everything to do with limiting the megalomanaical designs of Louis XIV in Italy, the Netherlands and (through it's ally Bavaria) the HRE as well as Spain, thus maintaining a balance of power in Europe (Something it did very well), and little or nothing to do with Catalan liberties. Besides, the Spanish front was more or less unwinnable and pouring more men and resources there was akin to throwing them away to attrition, heatstroke, disease and the like- siphoning them from fronts that were winnable, such as in the Spanish Netherlands.

That's not to say that the Treaty of Utrecht was anything but an astounding show of bad faith on our part to all concerned (especially the Dutch) but there was nothing to be done for Catalonia; the rest of Spain would not accept Archduke Charles, or a partition of Spanish territories any kind, even if France forced the issue, so it was either let the Catalans down, or continue a war that couldn't be won and that had already lasted for over a decade. Sorry. It had to be done.


(I said I'd be back to talk about the War of the Spanish Succession )

 

[ace99]

thus maintaining a balance of power

What are you trying to do here buddy?

 

[NedimNapoleon]

>implying there ever was a true balance of power.

 

[JohannaK]

With all due respect, the War of the Spanish Succession had everything to do with limiting the megalomanaical designs of Louis XIV in Italy, the Netherlands and (through it's ally Bavaria) the HRE as well as Spain, thus maintaining a balance of power in Europe (Something it did very well), and little or nothing to do with Catalan liberties.

Did I ever say it was about Catalan liberties? That was the reason why the territories of the former Crown of Aragon supported the Hapsburg, it's all I'm saying (Catalan in the case of Catalonia, Aragonese for Aragon, etc.).

Besides, the Spanish front was more or less unwinnable and pouring more men and resources there was akin to throwing them away to attrition, heatstroke, disease and the like- siphoning them from fronts that were winnable, such as in the Spanish Netherlands.

Incompetent officials everywhere!
But I concur. Castille would never accept Charles. Ever.

That's not to say that the Treaty of Utrecht was anything but an astounding show of bad faith on our part to all concerned (especially the Dutch) but there was nothing to be done for Catalonia; the rest of Spain would not accept Archduke Charles, or a partition of Spanish territories any kind, even if France forced the issue, so it was either let the Catalans down, or continue a war that couldn't be won and that had already lasted for over a decade. Sorry. It had to be done.

I think Spain has always had one problem. And that problem is called Castille. Spain was, what, a loose federation of kingdoms under one monarch? But that's how they called the resulting entity, Spain, and somehow the people and the nobility extended their views of their lands to the whole of it. Since the Crown of Aragon had always been basically the same thing that was now Spain, it was in the traditionally much more nobility-controlled, monarch-led Castille that problems aroused. Why? Because the monarchs had their capital there, being the largest and most populated kingdom, and eventually they came to have a Castillian-like mentality, and tried to homogenise the whole of Spain into Castille. That's always been the problem.

 

[Peck of Arabia]

What are you trying to do here buddy?

>implying there ever was a true balance of power.

I suppose you got me there. When I say maintaining a balance of power I probably mean 'continue an age old tradition of falling out with the French'.

Still if anyone needed knocking down a peg or two it was Louis XIV

I think Spain has always had one problem. And that problem is called Castille. Spain was, what, a loose federation of kingdoms under one monarch? But that's how they called the resulting entity, Spain, and somehow the people and the nobility extended their views of their lands to the whole of it. Since the Crown of Aragon had always been basically the same thing that was now Spain, it was in the traditionally much more nobility-controlled, monarch-led Castille that problems aroused. Why? Because the monarchs had their capital there, being the largest and most populated kingdom, and eventually they came to have a Castillian-like mentality, and tried to homogenise the whole of Spain into Castille. That's always been the problem.

I think I get that, and I suppose I agree with Catalan independence (as long as I can continue to oppose Scottish independence free from charges of hypocrisy)

 

[ace99]

Still if anyone needed knocking down a peg or two it was Louis XIV

Tch, he was small potatoes compared to heroic Napoleon, the most magnificent and Enlightened ruler to ever grace Europe and a noted peacemaker.

 

[eduhum]

Catalonia will never be independent, at least in the next 75 years and capitalism definitely collapses and 1/3 of humanity dies of hunger.

So, next map!



What do you think this is?

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

You guessed it!
Europe in 2050!

 

[Joecoolyo]

Too radical eduhum, that's verging on fantasy.

 

[gangleri2001]

Catalonia will never be independent

We're already planning on our army and we have some sort of protodiplomacy. Besides, Spain is a failed and collapsing country at the moment unable to do. So keep dreaming.

 

[Leoreth]

Hahaha nationalists are cute. Protodiplomacy!

 

[ace99]

Hmm...World War I was the result of powerful competing nationalisms.

The Russians were the victims.

 

[gangleri2001]

Hahaha nationalists are cute. Protodiplomacy!

What so funny about the Catalan government having contacts with some foreign countries in order to ensure the recognition of the state after the referendum?

 

[ace99]

This resembles World War I where Bosnia was trying to secede from Austria-Hungary at the behest of Serbian proto-diplomacy. The inevitable outcome will be war. Many thought Austria-Hungary was a failed and collapsing country too.

Why can't you follow Napleon's example and unify with Europe?

 

[bhsup]

I could really be a lot more sympathetic towards Catalonian independence if it was in the south instead of the north.

 

[Civ'ed]

But Catalonia is in the east?
ANyway, guys, I think that's enough offtopic discussion....

 

[JohannaK]

This is Spain, our South is your Mexico.