The Huns for BtS

[cool3a2]

Shouldn't a lot of those names on the city list be the latinized version? Considering when they were conquered or sacked they had latin names?

Good question actually, can't serve with a clear answer. At the moment the city list isn't good - I agree with that. On the other side, I don't think that latinizing the cities would improve the list much. You are right that those cities belonged to the roman empire before, but their latin names still don't fit in this case in my eyes. There are basically two reasons for that. The first is, that those cities didn't have only one names I guess. Even today, there are cities that have multiple names. Think of cities in the basque region (Spanish / Basque) or Transylvania (Romanian / Hungarian) for example. I guess it was similar then when cities belonged to the Roman Empire, but were inhabited by different nationalities. In this case the roman name might not be the best choice. The second reason is, that from the moment on the Huns took those cities, they were hunnish in the first line, not roman. Therefor their hunnish names would be appropriate. Of course we don't know how the Huns called those cities. I could imagine to use the turkish (or another turkic) form of the city names as Huns most likely spoke a turkic language. Unfortunately I can't do anything there as I don't speak a single word turkish. All I could serve with is hungarian, but I don't want to as this would give the mod a too hungarian touch.

 

[Edgecrusher]

To be fair, isn't that list just a copy of the Huns city list from the Civ3 scenario?

Capo, for what its worth, all those cities are in Bulgaria, France, and Germany (with the exception of the first 2), and all those names are the modern day name.

Its not so much that the Huns "took" them in the way that the Roman Empire "took" cities. The Huns storm in, and if they weren't paid tribute, they burned the city to the ground, if they did, then they left it alone, demanding more tribute in the future. Therefore their empire is a collection of vassalized smaller tribal areas that they laid claim to tribute from. With that said, the city should just be the name what it was during the time period, wheither its latin, slavic, turkish, etc... The same way the Celtic cities are a collection of latin, celtic, and gaelic names.

If you want some help, I have a city list that I use for the version of the Huns I play with. Its largely just the name of the city, at the time when the Huns "took" them, and most of them are in modern day Serbia/Bulgaria/Macedonia. I know one example is Philippopolis (Plovdiv).

also FYI, you have the same city listed twice under two names, Rousse and Ruse.

 

[cool3a2]

Could be that the citylist is originally from civ3. I didn't develop it myself, I just adopted it. Either I copied it from another Hun mod (strategyonlies) or someone suggested it. This ways, it could be that a city is in two times under different names - like you said. I don't promise I take your list, but I'm curious and I'd really like to take a look at it. So please, post it here. We could then discuss it. But I believe I keep the current capital city as is . Maybe Tápiószentmárton would be another option as there have been found remains of a hunnish palace.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Here is the city list I use, in the order they appear. I do have Tapioszentmarton on the list (#2) for the reason you mentioned. When I put the list together, I had the intention of adding cities based on the "tier" they were in as I discovered names. Something that I havent looked at for some time.
The Tiers being:
1: Hunnic Cities: Cities with Ruins
2: Captured Cities: Cities mentioned during their rampage through Europe, in the order of capture.
3: The Civ3 list: The Bulgarian cities from the list, in the original name if found. Was going to remove the last city, as I added cities above. making the list 25 to 30 names.

Name in parenthasis are the modern name

Spoiler :

Szeged
Tápiószentmárton
Margus (Pozarevac)
Viminacium (Kostolac)
Sigindunum (Belgrade)
Sirmium (Sremska Mitrovic)
Ratiara
Naissus (Nis)
Serdica (Sofia)
Philippopolis (Plovdiv)
Arcadiopolis (Luleburgaz)
Pliskusa (original name of Pliska)
Preslav (ancient city upon which the modern Veliki Preslav was built) this post dates the huns)
Odessos (Greek name of Varna)
Madara
Stara Zagora
Pleven
Sliven
Dobrich
Bourgas
Rousse
Shumen
Montana
Vraca
Zalaegerszeg
Haskovo
Kazanlak
Gabrovo
Veliko Tarnovo
Great Bulgar

 

[cool3a2]

Interesting list indeed. I will take some time to think over this issue. I didn't give up the idea of using turkish / turkic forms of the citynames yet. Just feel free to continue the discussion.

 

[Nitram15]

Fantastic mod! I tried it last year, but I was / am love it! And don't worry about Ruga. Maybe I realase him in January.

 

[cool3a2]

Thanks, nitram! Glad to see you like it. BTW: if you tried it a year ago, then you haven't tried it with Bakuels units. Those and of course Ekmeks Attila is what makes this mod worth mentioning actually.

I started thinking about the citylist issue. Your cities, edgecrusher, are very well choosen, I'd say. Still, my problem is that the names all originate from 3 different groups of languages: hungarian, latin and slavic. At least two of them are completely foreign from a Huns point of view. We could start another discussion about the origins of the hungarian language here, but we better don't. Let us agree on that hungarian is the closest language to Hunnish from the mentioned three, at least due to its aglutinating type and the significant count of words that are of turkic origin. Anyways, hungarian still sticks out as its transcription of sounds is a bit off. In conclusion, the citylist doesn't give a harmonic picture. Of course, the old citylist has the same problem and therefor your list is still a clear advance because of the reason mentioned before.
The problem with the slavic names is, that according to my (limited) readings, Slavs occured on the Balkans fro around 600 AD only - in other words: definately after the Hun Empire disappeared (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). This ways the slavic citynames stick out most. For a few of the cities I found turkish names that seem to be more then only a transcription, and there are two more that could be replaced by roman names:
- Stara Zagora -> Beroe or Beroia (thracian) / Augusta Traiana (roman)
- Pleven -> Storgosia
(according to Wikipedia)
I could also think of another trick. 'Veliko' means either small or big, I think. Similar words occur somewhat often in Slavic citynames I believe. We could replace it by the turkish form of that word. If it means small, then I bet the turkish form would be similar to kis. Kis is hungarian for small and is of turkic origin I think. I also believe that I already read similar turkic words. Don't know if it is similar with nagy... Anyways, I'd of course prefer the turkish form of those words over the hungarian. Same could be done to Great in Great Bulgar.

So these are my first thoughts...

 

[Nitram15]

Thanks, nitram! Glad to see you like it. BTW: if you tried it a year ago, then you haven't tried it with Bakuels units. Those and of course Ekmeks Attila is what makes this mod worth mentioning actually.

I started thinking about the citylist issue. Your cities, edgecrusher, are very well choosen, I'd say. Still, my problem is that the names all originate from 3 different groups of languages: hungarian, latin and slavic. At least two of them are completely foreign from a Huns point of view. We could start another discussion about the origins of the hungarian language here, but we better don't. Let us agree on that hungarian is the closest language to Hunnish from the mentioned three, at least due to its aglutinating type and the significant count of words that are of turkic origin. Anyways, hungarian still sticks out as its transcription of sounds is a bit off. In conclusion, the citylist doesn't give a harmonic picture. Of course, the old citylist has the same problem and therefor your list is still a clear advance because of the reason mentioned before.
The problem with the slavic names is, that according to my (limited) readings, Slavs occured on the Balkans fro around 600 AD only - in other words: definately after the Hun Empire disappeared (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). This ways the slavic citynames stick out most. For a few of the cities I found turkish names that seem to be more then only a transcription, and there are two more that could be replaced by roman names:
- Stara Zagora -> Beroe or Beroia (thracian) / Augusta Traiana (roman)
- Pleven -> Storgosia
(according to Wikipedia)
I could also think of another trick. 'Veliko' means either small or big, I think. Similar words occur somewhat often in Slavic citynames I believe. We could replace it by the turkish form of that word. If it means small, then I bet the turkish form would be similar to kis. Kis is hungarian for small and is of turkic origin I think. I also believe that I already read similar turkic words. Don't know if it is similar with nagy... Anyways, I'd of course prefer the turkish form of those words over the hungarian. Same could be done to Great in Great Bulgar.

So these are my first thoughts...

Hmm. Interesting. Maybe I will download the newest version of your hun mod.
Other than that, glad to see work is in progress.

 

[cool3a2]

BTW: Most of the units are 'coneheaded' also, just the way you said you are making Ruga. Preview of the units in first post.

 

[The Capo]

Capo, for what its worth, all those cities are in Bulgaria, France, and Germany (with the exception of the first 2), and all those names are the modern day name.

Its not so much that the Huns "took" them in the way that the Roman Empire "took" cities. The Huns storm in, and if they weren't paid tribute, they burned the city to the ground, if they did, then they left it alone, demanding more tribute in the future. Therefore their empire is a collection of vassalized smaller tribal areas that they laid claim to tribute from. With that said, the city should just be the name what it was during the time period, wheither its latin, slavic, turkish, etc... The same way the Celtic cities are a collection of latin, celtic, and gaelic names.

I basically agree with this. I think if the city was a Roman city it should have a latin name, a Gothic/Germanic city it should have a Germanic name and so on and so forth. If there are settlements that are Hunnic then they should absolutely be at the top of the list (because they are more important in the Hunnic eye) and be named as close to realistically as possible. In cases where the city paid tribute and remained in-tact (and vassalized by the Huns) they probably would have retained their original names. I don't like the use of modern names for the cities partially because it really makes no sense, but MOSTLY because I have a lot of modules for my mod and all of the countries in the area have modules. So I'd rather avoid two names being the same, so I suppose it is a bit selfish, but it is selfish with a good purpose I guess.

 

[Edgecrusher]

I agree whole heartedly about the slavic names, which is one reason why I had them at the end, and was planning on removing them as more settlements were discovered. Unfortunitly the Huns left very little written records, and history books dont speak much about them other than what can be found through brief google searches and wikipedia.

I also tried to avoid the French/German area because France, Germany and the HRE have many of them already, not to mention the overlap that the Celts, and Spain might have. I put the focus on the Balkins, because there isn't a standard Civ that covers that area, outside of a few Roman/Byzantine cities, and that was an area where there was more materials about the Huns exploits available.
The fact of the matter is their will be lots of overlap, and alot more if non-standard civs are included, specifically Hungary and Bulgaria. The Huns did not build cities from the ground up, the conquored them. WIth all that said, I thought the list should just be the name of the city during the time period, in whatever language it was, since we (and history in general), will probably never know what the Huns actually called the city, if they actually called it anything.

also Capo, I believe (not sure if you knew this), but if a city already exists with in the map, when it comes time for the city to be used, its skipped over. Ex: Thebes (#1 for Egypt, #3 for Greece), is always skipped for Greece if both civs exist on the same map (assuming of coarse that the Egyptian Thebes still exists).

 

[Edgecrusher]

Also if it helps, I used the Thulsa Doom LH as a placeholder art for Rugila. Only reason though was because I have zero artistic ability.

Link

 

[cool3a2]

Thanks for your thoughts, guys. I suppose I could live with latin names, so let's concentrate on replacing the slavic ones.

Interesting idea to use the Thulsa Doom LH as place holder, but I believe it's not necessary. Nitram is already about to create a proper Ruga and I actually don't plan to upload a new version of the mod before he finishs his work. This ways, we'll also have time to set up the citylist properly.

What you said about the games behaviour when two times the same city occurs, could be true. I guess I'll give it a go. But I think this would require the same 'pseudo-name' of the city within the xml. So, I believe the displayed name of the city doesn't play any role, but the name it is referenced in the xml files. In this case, I should take care for that effect. Would be silly if the Huns would run out oif citynames, because other civs have built those cities earlier... On the other side, if the slavic names get replaced by latin / greek names, this should be solved. I don't believe that the roman citylist uses any of those cities. And even if there is a Balkan civ that uses the same city, it might not be that obvious. Also, some of the cities in question might not even be the same city actually, although the stand / stood on the same place. I guess lots of the roman cities have been destroyed actually and new cities have been founded on top of them. In this case, the wo are actuall different cities.
Szeged shouldn't be a problem either. It occurs later within the hungarian citylist whereas it is the capital for the Huns. If you are right, edgecrusher, the Huns should always get Szeged if both civs are included in civ4 at once. Zalaegerszeg might be a problem, though. Need to check that.

I also fund this: http://www.allempires.net/topic7796.html, but of course this is rather speculative. Therefor using some of the cities there (probably in a transcripted form so they stick out less), might not be a good idea, though.

BTW: Just to bring one of my earlier thoughts to an end: small seems to mean kücük in turkish and therefor it seems to be related to the hungarian words kis and kicsi indeed...

 

[Edgecrusher]

Just to clarify, Yea, I believe the city name is only skipped if it is spelled identical in the two lists, by this I mean TXT_KEY_CITY_XXX

Thebes is really the only major example that comes to mind. There are other conflicts. Specifically between the Arabian and Persian lists.
But the specific number of conflicts that occur natually are very low.

Finding Hunnic cities is going to be a challange. Either way, I think only 30 or so is necessary. Plus once the list runs out, I believe it just starts using unused names.

 

[The Capo]

Something that has always bothered me about this mod is that the UB looks a lot like the Ger. Is there anything that can be done to make it look more unique?

Maybe use some of the buildings from Geo's Mongolian City Set.

 

[cool3a2]

The problem in my eyes with your suggestion is, that I'm already using said cityset for this mod for at least ancient era. This ways, the UB would be even less unique, I think. That's why I decided for current art which was also taken from GeoModders mod. But basically I agree on searching for a better art. I'll think about it and of course I'm awaiting further suggestions.

 

[The Capo]

The problem in my eyes with your suggestion is, that I'm already using said cityset for this mod for at least ancient era. This ways, the UB would be even less unique, I think. That's why I decided for current art which was also taken from GeoModders mod. But basically I agree on searching for a better art. I'll think about it and of course I'm awaiting further suggestions.

I'd buy that response, except the building you are using already does look like the buildings in this city. For the Hunnic module in my mod I am using this as their UB. It isn't the best thing possible, but it is unique and sort of fits in with the city-set.

 

[cool3a2]

Hmmm... looks good. Yesterday I took a look at GeoModders mod to see what has changed since I checked it last time. I found two buildings that could be used. Both are made out of the mongol camp. One of them consists of two, the other of 4 yurts. They look a bit like the building I am using as granary, but still might be better then what is now. I suggest the following: post your building as nif and I'll take an in-game screenshot or do the screenshot by your own and post it here. I'll take two screenshots of the yurts I mentioned and post them here as well. Then we might discuss what looks best, maybe even have a voting.

 

[The Capo]

Hmmm... looks good. Yesterday I took a look at GeoModders mod to see what has changed since I checked it last time. I found two buildings that could be used. Both are made out of the mongol camp. One of them consists of two, the other of 4 yurts. They look a bit like the building I am using as granary, but still might be better then what is now. I suggest the following: post your building as nif and I'll take an in-game screenshot or do the screenshot by your own and post it here. I'll take two screenshots of the yurts I mentioned and post them here as well. Then we might discuss what looks best, maybe even have a voting.

I'll do that as soon as I finish the Hunnic module, it isn't done yet.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I like the Capo's one, but post the other two versions. I would like to see those too...
Till then: Any news on Ruga?