The Huns for BtS

[kivanc]

Well, I think this wouldn't really fit as well. I agree with Kabcsi on the traits. On the other hand people in the western usually think Huns were barbarians. This isn't true either, it's more roman propaganda then reality. Sure, they often were in war, but you can say the same about the Romans. So what I want to say is: please don't use phrases like "WTF" when we talk about this, okay?

Your idea for the UB is interesting, but I am not sure if religion was that important for the Huns. All I have read about the Huns that had something to do with religion, was that Attila was maybe a christian king (believe it or not). I also don't find priests that important in civ4, maybe I have a different style of playing it than you? Where did you get this idea for the UB? Can you serve with a source?

I also thought that mystisicm isn't a good start technology, but your suggestions seem to be very strong (especially mining). On the other hand I can't see how the Huns get their food if not by hunting. Huns were nomads, even when they settled down in europe, they haven't started agriculture or fishing AFAIK. The only way to get food would be raids, but that isn't enough for an empire. So what I want to tell you, is giving them hunting as starting tech. I also don't see what Huns have to do with wheels, but this may be due to may leck of knowledge.

According to the sources I have read, Huns didn't really used other units than horsebased ones. If this is true (well, that isn't necessarily the case, because I made the experience that german sources about Huns are poor; however, I can't serve with a source unless you speak / can read german...), then the UU has to be a horse based one. On the other hand, Huns had a great empire. They needed fast troops and they have simply overrun the Balkan. For these things nothing else then mounted units were needed.
When I play civ4 (always with Hungary), I used to research horsearchers early. That's not a problem. Other civilizations get their UU much later. But you may be right when you say the UU is weak at the moment.

well. i know about hunnish history very well and agree with you about your issue on the term barbarians.
huns have turkic root and believe in shamanism in that ancient era like most Turks before Islam.

+1 free priest every city is good. this means 1gold, 1 hammer and 3 beakers (with repr) for each city. why i thought of such a UB was for compensating the traits of Attila. i think everyone agree that Attila should have at least 1 warring trait, so as to suit his military skills good. so a UB helping economy could be fine.
if he would have 1 warring trait, then CHA is better than agg. especially if his UU would be a mounted one, CHA is much better if you would give him AGG/CHA, this is a good combo but it is hard about economy in high levels.
if you insist on a mounted UU, then chariot replacements would be better. sth like immortals maybe. a chariot with a free cover promot and a little less cost for ex. what about this?
or a scout replacement with free medic 1 promot? what do you say? it would be strange and useful with CHA, right?

it is your civ but i believe CRE/CHA would be very good for him.

 

[kivanc]

i was very busy while writing my previous message so i will continue now.

Well, I think this wouldn't really fit as well. I agree with Kabcsi on the traits.

i didn't fuss about which trait would suit his characteristics best as there are already some leaders like him in the game. Genghis etc. But if you want to have a different kind of leader than the others (instead of just using Shaka's traits) Cre/Cha is an example.
If you would try to arrange traits about his true historical personality then the traits should certainly be IMP/CHA. IMP because he was a hortizontal expansionist more than a vertical expansionist (EXP) and CHA because he leaded western huns while the eastern huns stayed in Mid Asian flatlands and founded an empire in East Europe. So he leaded a large community (with small seperations from the group only) from Asia to Europe and this proves his leadership skills.

Your idea for the UB is interesting, but I am not sure if religion was that important for the Huns. All I have read about the Huns that had something to do with religion, was that Attila was maybe a christian king (believe it or not). I also don't find priests that important in civ4, maybe I have a different style of playing it than you? Where did you get this idea for the UB? Can you serve with a source?

Yes, you are right. Religion was not that important in Hunnish daily life. So if you are talking about historical fact as being a source, no i don't have.
But as i said earlier, in higher difficulties supporting a large army is very hard so he would need a little help for economy. it would bring 1G,1H (and thus 3 beakers) like an assigned priest. but i was not talking about a permission for assigning priest there.Obelisk has that ability. I was talking about a free priest specialist like Salon gives a free artist.
If you mean a CODING example by saying "source", then you examine the codes of French salon edit it. Russian UB is also similar, giving 2 free scientist.

Similarly, if you want UB to be related with true history, i would suggest a UB helping increase the free supported military units. what about this?
Because all hunnish man were warriors and fighting was common for them. they used to fight much in mid asia with other mongol and turkic tribes, chinese etc. so as they are a mobile and warrior community, some free support military units would be sensible.

* Replaces Barracks
* +2 free military units for each barracks (for coding example, you can look at Feudalism, giving free units)
* -25% war weariness in this city (can be edited from police state or like jail)
* -25% less turns for anger duration after DRAFT in this city (can be edited like Sacrificial Altar)

So this is not a direct gold like a free priest but this will help the player only when he will fight I mean, all 3 give a little INDIRECT help to economy, support your economy only when you are warring. So this encourages warring, right?
You can use all 3 or a combination of 3.
well, i'm just trying to imagine different UB kinds that doesn't exist in the game.

I also thought that mystisicm isn't a good start technology, but your suggestions seem to be very strong (especially mining). On the other hand I can't see how the Huns get their food if not by hunting. Huns were nomads, even when they settled down in europe, they haven't started agriculture or fishing AFAIK. The only way to get food would be raids, but that isn't enough for an empire. So what I want to tell you, is giving them hunting as starting tech. I also don't see what Huns have to do with wheels, but this may be due to may leck of knowledge.

Well, if you all agree on a mounted UB, then starting with "the wheel+agriculture" or "the wheel+hunting" is better.
for a copper related UB, starting with mining would be sensible. and the wheel helps for roading of that resource to capital. you should start searching BR working and settle near that resoruce early. IMP would help much for that.
Similarly for mounted UBS the wheel and one of hunting and agriculture would help for early Animal Husbandry. But i still believe it shoudl be a CHARIOT replacement instead of a horse archer one, if it should be a mounted UB.
If you want to talk according to history again, yes hunting should be the way to go. i'm not sure about the second tech.

According to the sources I have read, Huns didn't really used other units than horsebased ones. If this is true (well, that isn't necessarily the case, because I made the experience that german sources about Huns are poor; however, I can't serve with a source unless you speak / can read german...), then the UU has to be a horse based one. On the other hand, Huns had a great empire. They needed fast troops and they have simply overrun the Balkan. For these things nothing else then mounted units were needed.
When I play civ4 (always with Hungary), I used to research horsearchers early. That's not a problem. Other civilizations get their UU much later. But you may be right when you say the UU is weak at the moment.

as i said you are right. Hunnish warriors were horse archers and horseriding swordsman (not knights, w/o armor)

 

[kivanc]

1 more example from history.
People in Mid Asia have some games played on horses. Turks, Mongols, Afghans etc. Throwing javelins, trying to take away a bunch of thing (dead animal maybe?) from each other while riding.

This gives me an idea of a UB similar to Hippodrome. I mean a UB like following
* Replaces Stable
* Gives +2 Happiness with Horse
etc etc

well, that's enough for now. i shall not post any more until someone replied

 

[cool3a2]

Oh men, these are a lot of ideas. I am glad to see you take a lot of time thinking about this and share your ideas.

+2 free military units for each barracks (for coding example, you can look at Feudalism, giving free units)

It really sounds like a good idea, but I am not sure if it is that easy. The properties you can give an object depends on what kind of object you are working. In easy words: that I can give +2 free military units to a tech, doesn't necessarily mean that I can do the same with a building or a unit. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it is impossible. I haven't checked this now, so I can't tell you if this is possible only via XML (with Python it should be, but I am an NOOB although I believe I could learn it very fast since I am familiar with C++; AFAIK C++ and Python are very similar).

This gives me an idea of a UB similar to Hippodrome. I mean a UB like following
* Replaces Stable
* Gives +2 Happiness with Horse

That sounds very good to me, althoug I don't know if +2 Happiness with horse is possible. I'll check the Hippodrome if it increases happiness with a certain ressource. If it can, then your suggestion is certainly possible. We could also make it a bit cheaper. If the UU would be a horse related unit, it would have even a stronger effect.

If you mean a CODING example by saying "source"...

Well, I actually meant historical / scientific sources about the Huns. But by telling me about similar buildings, you help me much, too. I don't have all buildings stats in mind (because I haven't checked all and I actually mod civ4 more then I play it, so experience is missing), so this would save me time.

If you want to talk according to history again...

This and your suggestions remind me to a situation we had with the magyar mod not long time ago. At first we had some problems with Hungarys UB as well, so we collected different suggestions what the UB could be. At the end our idea was to boost Hungarys research, because we thought for a that small country Hungary had a high influence on technological progress (I won't go deeper in this topic here, I'll only name some people: Ede [Edward] Teller, János [John] Neumann, Ányos Jedlik, László József Bíró; so if you are interested in this, google for these names). The only idea we had was a unique university, but it didn't really fit since there is nothing special about hungarian universities. I already started to create a 3d modell and almost finished it when a Chem named guy vetoed in the hungarian forum. He said that this UB wouldn't fit to Hungary and suported the idea of the végvár. He also said if somebody doesn't likes this UB (the végvár) then he should play another civ or do whatever he wants. But if we would give the university UB to Hungary the civ wouldn't really be Hungary. I wasn't pleased at first (mostly because I feared my efforts on the 3d modell appeared to be wasted), but after I thought about what he said, I found he was right. However, this isn't a dogma, it is only an opinion. We can discuss on that. If we decide for making this civ like the original Huns, we have little scope, because the Huns died out very early as you all know. Maybe we should agree on this point firstly. If we decide to make this civ like the Huns have been, this doesn't mean necessarily that we should avoid that Huns can build units they didn't knew in reality (this means replace an elefant unit by a horse related UU as proposed). I have made my point of view about this clear previously. So what is the opinion of the community?


EDIT: damn, my post got quite long again I shouldn't do that, because people could get too lazy to read it...

 

[kivanc]

I forgot to write one more thing about UU. As I like original and different types of UU/UB, what about this UU?

* Replaces Settlers
* Cost: 240 Hammers (instead of 300)
* Power: 2 (can only defend)
* +100% vs Animals
* +100% vs Melee
* Power: 3 (can only defend) when supplied with HORSE+IRON (I don't know whether this one is possible. but not so critical)

The reason for this; well it is obvious. Huns were nomads. They were half ready to move their houses all time. That's the reason for decreased cost.
And they were also half ready for wars during their journey. Remember, they moved from mid Asia to Europe.


If you like the idea, we can discuss about the combat odds.Your suggestion on Tarkan still seems to much Mongol-ish to me. Just try to do sth different than Mongols.

 

[kivanc]

Off. I've written one more post but accidentally replaced with the previous one. It was shortly about a UB idea on increased power rating.

You know walls increase power rating.
A barracks UB increasing power rating would be cool. Barracks is better bec it doesn't get obsolote.
Increased power rating would effect your chance on getting tech after capturing cities, getting tribute in peace times, chance on capitulization etc etc. And it will discourage AIs to attack.

You can examine the codes of walls about how it effects the power rating. I don't know clearly.

If you would do that you should test it good. Because it should not be too much or too less strong.
Roughly let's say, it should double your chance on getting tribute.

About Huns, well they are famous with their appearance before BC. So univesity seems a late UB for them. An early and militaristic UB seems to fit them better. And as economy is the main drawback of warmongering, a little INDIRECT economy is cool for warmongers. Decreasing war costs or decreasing unhappiness during wars or increasing chance to get tribute. These are ideas coming to my mind.

Huns were not dead after 1BC. They just continued with different and smaller empires. And they got hybrid with local nations by time. Still, most historicians believe today's Magyars and Bulgars are relatives of Western Huns.

 

[cool3a2]

Huns were not dead after 1BC.

I am a bit confused now. Of course they didn't disappear after 1BC. Attila died in 453 (AD) only (AFAIK his deathday was on last weekend) and I am actually don't know if Huns already were in europe in 1BC.

Still, most historicians believe today's Magyars ... are relatives of Western Huns.

Well, I have read a lot about Hungarians / Magyars early history. My sources came from different regions: there were english, german and hungarian. My readings show me that your statement isn't right. Most german and official hungarian sources strongly deny that Magyars and Huns are really related. However, "inofficial" hungarian sources try to prove the relation between Huns and Magyars. English sources varying in his point. So I'd call the relation between Huns and Magyars "disputed". I for myself believe the fin-ugric theory is too dogmatic, at the moment it doesn't seem to be clear if Magyars are related to Huns or not.

Your suggestion on Tarkan still seems to much Mongol-ish to me

I know, it's a problem indeed. But I think a horse archer would be the most realistic unique unit. We could make it more unique by giving it unique properties. And Huns wouldn't be the same as Mongols if leader and / or UB would be different although UU is similar.

So univesity seems a late UB for them

It seems to me that my example was confusing. My intention was to give an example for giving a civ a UB that is unrealistic. To do this I described the first UB of Hungary (in the usual sense, in an other word: Magyars [not Huns]), he university that have been replaced later. I didn't want to suggest giving the Huns a university as UB. Sorry, if it sounded this way.

 

[kivanc]

It seems to me that my example was confusing. My intention was to give an example for giving a civ a UB that is unrealistic. To do this I described the first UB of Hungary (in the usual sense, in an other word: Magyars [not Huns]), he university that have been replaced later. I didn't want to suggest giving the Huns a university as UB. Sorry, if it sounded this way.

Yeah yeah, i know what you meant. i just wanted to say an earlier UB is more sensible.
By the way, you didn't comment on my settler UU

I am a bit confused now. Of course they didn't disappear after 1BC. Attila died in 453 (AD) only (AFAIK his deathday was on last weekend) and I am actually don't know if Huns already were in europe in 1BC.

yes, you are right. I just talked roughly about dates. By saying before 1BC, I meant about ancient times/classical age. Huns appeared after 1AD in Europe. Near to the decline of Rome.
Attila's tomb is -according to legend- said to be in 1 of the branches of Tuna river. That can be any of tens of branch of Tuna River in Romania. And it is said to be buried with a lot of gold Come on, let's go!

Well, I have read a lot about Hungarians / Magyars early history. My sources came from different regions: there were english, german and hungarian. My readings show me that your statement isn't right. Most german and official hungarian sources strongly deny that Magyars and Huns are really related. However, "inofficial" hungarian sources try to prove the relation between Huns and Magyars. English sources varying in his point. So I'd call the relation between Huns and Magyars "disputed". I for myself believe the fin-ugric theory is too dogmatic, at the moment it doesn't seem to be clear if Magyars are related to Huns or not.

Well, some theories can easily be exaggurated by racist historicians, I know about that. And I can't say what I say about Magyars is the truth but by looking at early Hungarian states (the ones earleir than Austria-Hungaria dnasty especially), I can also see too much resemblence to Huns and Avars.

But anyway, forget about Magyar/Bulgar relation with Huns. But let's talk about common knowledge, shortly.
*huns came from Mid Asia. Huns (aka western huns) were a part of Xiognu (aka eastern Hun) dynasty before they moved to Russian flatland.
*Before Xiongnu (aka Eastern Huns), Avars (aka Juan-Juans) ruled mid Asia. Avars are also a Turkic/Mongolian tribe. Avars moved to Europe as well, togetehr with others.
*After Xiongnu; Göktürk, Uyghur and Mongolian empires ruled mid Asia, in order. Besides these larger ones, many other smaller but still large Turko/Mongolian empires existed in mid Asia.

The above 3 is shortly the issue with Eastern Huns. So nowadays' Eastern Turks and Mongols are relatives with Eastern Huns.

*About western Huns, most of them deny their roots but still some call themselves as Turks. Huns were the ones who moved to northwest from Mid Asia.

*There were also many tribes moving every direction. Towards Siberia to North, India to south and/but mainly towards Southwest.

*The large part moving towards southwest was called Oghuz Turks. And many mid age empires mid-east and Persia are Oghuz empires. And nowadays' Oghuz Turks are Turkey, Azeris, Turkmens etc.

more details can be found in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns

The above links seem to support Fin-Ugric theory (in your terms). But sure, each source will have a (at least half) subjective beginning. You cannot find any pure objective source about such early nations. Remember that the history is written by winners, always.

Still, we are lucky that we have some old and true historicians like Herodot.

OK, whatever. I like history. I like searching about any nation's history. I would gladly read any nation's legends if I had enough time.

 

[cool3a2]

This gives me an idea of a UB similar to Hippodrome. I mean a UB like following
* Replaces Stable
* Gives +2 Happiness with Horse

I checked this, it should be possible to create an UB like this. Maybe it could also be a little bit cheaper. I'd say this one is a good idea. Just one point: stables need horses anyway, so it isn't needed to give the moral bonus only with access to horses.

Attila's tomb is -according to legend- said to be in 1 of the branches of Tuna river

Didn't you mean the Tisza?

Come on, let's go!

Yeah! AFAIK a hungarian musician is already searching for the tomb. It could be interesting. According to the Gesta Hungarorum the house of Árpád (Hungarys first dynasty) us descended from Attila. The right hand of Szent István, an Árpádian, is still existing. So if Attilas body would have been found, they could examine their genes and find out if their is a relationship between Huns and Magyars and even if Szent István was a great-gret-...-great-grandson of Attila...

By the way, you didn't comment on my settler UU

Sorry. Well, I think it would be really unique, but I don't know if it would be a useful UU. From my experience I'd say it is quite seldom that I capture a settler or that one of mine gets captured. It's more likely to capture a worker than a settler, I think. Well, one could build a horde of settlers as defending units Just kidding. So it would be a really unique unit that fits to the Huns, but not very useful - at least not for me or better said for my style of playing civ4.

Allow me another offtopic question: When my parents traveled to Turkey they had a tourist guide who told them Turks speak a fin-ugric language. AFAIK there are approximatly 1500 words that are similar in Turkish and Hungarian and the grammar is also similar. But I never read or heard that Turkish is a fin-ugric language before. So is that position common in Turkey? And do scientisc share it also or is it a popular believe?

 

[kivanc]

I checked this, it should be possible to create an UB like this. Maybe it could also be a little bit cheaper. I'd say this one is a good idea. Just one point: stables need horses anyway, so it isn't needed to give the moral bonus only with access to horses.

Yeah, but stable gets obsolote. so I'm not sure if it would be good although you liked. Still, it could be very good for earlyu game.

Didn't you mean the Tisza?

Well. The river between Romania and Bulgaria, going north to Hungaria and Vien. I didn't know the exact English name. Tuna is the Turkish one.

Sorry. Well, I think it would be really unique, but I don't know if it would be a useful UU. From my experience I'd say it is quite seldom that I capture a settler or that one of mine gets captured. It's more likely to capture a worker than a settler, I think. Well, one could build a horde of settlers as defending units Just kidding. So it would be a really unique unit that fits to the Huns, but not very useful - at least not for me or better said for my style of playing civ4.

The main idea was about being able to settle near a far away resource, without any need of escorting. This would be very useful for early game. If you don't have copper nearby, you can go settle near a far away copper and the copper will be yours after sailing, assuming it is far away to build road to capital.
As stronger units require resource (all except archers), this settler would help a lot. Just automove him and he will go settle. Still, he is not overpowered and can be beaten with a long archer or swords or even spears if you are unlucky.
Most warmongers start researching with either BR working or An husbandry.

Giving workers strength, i also thought about. But this would be only to defend them, so it will be useless. Instead, having the chance of settling the 2nd, 3rd cities far away is a very good beginning.

And about using these units for defense, I just guessed, you would make such a joke and I'm right. No! Noone would do that because it will stop growing for long time

EDIT: 1q here. Do you play barbarians disabled? And what difficulty do you play on? I was surprised you underestimated the UU. someone can even believe it IS overpowered.

Allow me another offtopic question: When my parents traveled to Turkey they had a tourist guide who told them Turks speak a fin-ugric language. AFAIK there are approximatly 1500 words that are similar in Turkish and Hungarian and the grammar is also similar. But I never read or heard that Turkish is a fin-ugric language before. So is that position common in Turkey? And do scientisc share it also or is it a popular believe?

It's not a so much wide-spread belief. In fact, there are many similar beliefs. Some look sensible and some don't.

Talking about your language example; according to Turkish language social science, our language is considered to be in Ural-Altai language family. But on the other hand, most historicians believe Ugric tribes (living in Inland and North Russia) are of Turkic root and some believe we also have some relation with the Finnish.
Moreover, there are some guys believing some small parts of the Turks have passed the Berring Channel during great migration and therefore mixed their culture with native americans.
Most guys agree Turks are cousins/close relatives with Mongols. And some believe Korean and Japanese people are of Mongolian root.
Because that Turks have dominated the Balkans for many centuries, there are many Turkish words used by Serbs and others as well. But AFAIK, Turks had Hungarian territory for a rather shorter time (1century maybe), so I don't think so many words have remained in that culture. If there are any similar words, it should be because of Magyar's old old relation with Turks. I mean, the relation which might have been in times of Huns, not later Ottomans.

Well, in fact a nation's culture takes effect from religion more than the race it coems from. That's why, it's hard to believe a relation of Magyars with Turks. But I believe there is a relation somehow. And there are also some smaller Turkish cultures believing Christianity as well, who also agree that they are Turks.
Similarly, I believe Georgian and Armenian peoples may have some relation with old Persians maybe but as they are Christian, people would laugh at at this idea.
Most generally, small parts of the tribes sharing different religion than the otehr larger part, generally denies its relation with larger part, by time. And they make wars with the other part. And after centuries passed, this becomes a rule. If we didn't have enough science to tell our today to later generations, I'm sure, people would laugh at the idea that Pakistan and India
come from the same race.

 

[cool3a2]

The river between Romania and Bulgaria, going north to Hungaria and Vien.

Then it's the Danube river you are thinking of. I could have think on that earlier since its hungarian name is Duna. However, the Tisza is mentioned as well in this context (that it contains the tomb of Attila).

EDIT: 1q here. Do you play barbarians disabled? And what difficulty do you play on? I was surprised you underestimated the UU. someone can even believe it IS overpowered.

I play with barbarians enabled but on a low difficulty level. So it's easy to build the great wall. From this on you have enough units that aren't needed and can be used to escort settlers. So you can say I am not a very good player. As I said: I am modding civ4 more than I play it. It's possible that I underestimated it.

A stable UB would get obsolete, but i don't think that's a big problem. It gets obsolete in later times only. Other civs have a UB that comes very late, like Germany (they have some kind of factory, if I am informed correctly). They can't use it much longer than the Huns a stable UB.

Would be interesting if others would share their thoughts on camarillas suggestions, too. It appears that we have some kind of dialogue here.

Thank you for your explanations about the turkish point of view

 

[cool3a2]

So, nothing is going on here, huh?

In my opinion the UU is okay as it is. As UB I could imagine to give the current UB a moral bonus of 1 and lets say +10% on landunit production. Instead of this we could add these two bonuses to barracks. No matter which, I would change the obsolete property of the UB as none of the UBs seem to become obsolete.

 

[Edgecrusher]

So, nothing is going on here, huh?

In my opinion the UU is okay as it is. As UB I could imagine to give the current UB a moral bonus of 1 and lets say +10% on landunit production. Instead of this we could add these two bonuses to barracks. No matter which, I would change the obsolete property of the UB as none of the UBs seem to become obsolete.

I am pretty certain that the:
Egyptian Obilisk
Ethiopian Stele
Native American Totem Pole
Spanish Citadel
Mongolian Ger

all become obsolete. for its worth, I dont have a problem with UB's becomming obsolete. As long as it makes sense.

 

[cool3a2]

Oh, yeah. I only pointed with my mouse on the symbol in the corresponding civilizations civilopedia entry. Then I have missed the red texts... Sorry. So, any suggestions for or opinions on a UB.

 

[kivanc]

Oh, yeah. I only pointed with my mouse on the symbol in the corresponding civilizations civilopedia entry. Then I have missed the red texts... Sorry. So, any suggestions for or opinions on a UB.

you haven't commented on my UB suggestion; UB with a higher power rating

SO as each castle, eaach walls add to your power rating, a UB would add to your power rating; helping you to have a little more effect on otehr AIs, better diplo relations and better disincline skills, better chance of getting tributes etc etc.

Another suggestion is my example about free units. This is the best help to a warmonger. If it is possible, you will multiply number of UBs you have with 2 or 3. So assuming you have 10 cities, you will have 20 free units plus number of free units presented thru civics.

As in civ4, there is no unit belonging to a particular city; each unit belongs to the country. So you will just multiply the number of UBs you will have.


If this number of free units feature only applicable to civics, if they are not applicable to UBs then you can apply this skill to a particular civic, to let it work

For ex: vassalage gives 10 free units (original civic property) + 2 free units times number of UBs you will have. So that property of vassalage will only work for that UB, in this case the HUNS.

And you can apply the same thing to another civic. For example, see the following;

number of UB*2 free units (with vassalege)
number of UB*1 free units (with bureacracy)

 

[cool3a2]

I will check if your suggestions can be realized with XML. I will report tomorrow. To be honest: your free unit suggestion sounds very complicated, at least if it includes the current civic. Anyway, I'll check it.

 

[cool3a2]

I have checked your suggestion about the free units. Buildings don't have a free-unit-property and I can't see how it could be possible to link a civic with a certain building type, at least not for this purpose. I hope I really understood your suggestion (version B): you thought on giving the UB a variable number of free units and that variable number depends on the current civic, correct? Well, as I said I couldn't find a way how to realize this.

As about your strength suggestion, I can't see a value in the game that represents this. I believe there is something like this internally that tells the AI "Oh, be careful with this guy, he is pretty strong." but I can't see how to influence this (by XML). Maybe there is something like this that I have missed. I will look at this, too, somewhat later.

If you want you can look for this...
... here (buildings properties)
or here (civics properties, interesting for your first suggestion). There is an explanation in clear words which property can be influenced and how.

For all users: It would help, if you could format and emphasize your suggestions about the UB (or UU) inside your posts in future. This way it is easier to review them later. A name or a number could also help, so it would be easier to tell you or someone else which idea I was thinking of. It's not needed that you do this for your previous suggestions / posts (if you have any).


EDIT: Got it: iPower is used to calculate the players strength. There are a lot of things having something to do with Power, but in sense of energy (see nuclear power plant), that must be the reason why I missed it. However, with this I could realize your suggestion. The problem is, that I don't know what an adequate value for this property could be. Tomorrow I'll check again if this property can be seen from inside the game, but I don't think so. In this case the player wouldn't see what's the unique on this building. And it could cause the following: what if you have a lot of this UBs, but only few and / or weak units? Your opponent would recognize you as powerful (because he is stupid) and start a war "until it is too late". In this case the higher power rate could be a disadvantage. Don't know if this is a realistic scenario. Maybe it is also a question of the right power value... And what if we could create an adequate power rate for ancient times? Would it be still okay for medieval times or would it be too weak? In this case the UB could loose it's importance very soon. Has anyone tried on this?

 

[kivanc]

If you want you can look for this...
... here (buildings properties)
or here (civics properties, interesting for your first suggestion). There is an explanation in clear words which property can be influenced and how.

I know about general philosophy of programming well as I program PLCs, but this is a different kind of programming than the coding that IT guys do. So I don't have much XP on these.
It would be really very enjoyable to be a modder but unfortunately, I don't have any time for this.

EDIT: Got it: iPower is used to calculate the players strength. There are a lot of things having something to do with Power, but in sense of energy (see nuclear power plant), that must be the reason why I missed it. However, with this I could realize your suggestion. The problem is, that I don't know what an adequate value for this property could be. Tomorrow I'll check again if this property can be seen from inside the game, but I don't think so. In this case the player wouldn't see what's the unique on this building. And it could cause the following: what if you have a lot of this UBs, but only few and / or weak units? Your opponent would recognize you as powerful (because he is stupid) and start a war "until it is too late". In this case the higher power rate could be a disadvantage. Don't know if this is a realistic scenario. Maybe it is also a question of the right power value... And what if we could create an adequate power rate for ancient times? Would it be still okay for medieval times or would it be too weak? In this case the UB could loose it's importance very soon. Has anyone tried on this?

Yeah, I'm aware. I also impressed on that it should be tested when I first suggested this.

For testing, you can go into worldbuilder and then build 15-20 citieis in standart size or 50-60cities in huge sizeworld. I think this is the greatest numebr of cities that can be build in those sizes.
After that put that UB in every city and try to see how much it effected.
In order not to make an overpowered and unbalanced UB or not to make a UB with very small effect, it should have been played for a few 10 turns. Faster speeds are good for such trials.
I know these would be long to test and decide about how much the ipower parameter should be boosted. I just assume you are curious about such things and like it and also have the time for these.

Many guys (me as well) build the walls and castles in every city, even if it would never see a war, it would still increase the power rating. Once (maybe half a year ago) I learned that such building increase a parameter helping power rating and discouraging AI (and I learned that it is ipower from you, thanks), after that I started building such buildings in every city.

 

[kivanc]

One more UB suggestion:
* replaces theatre
* free naomiii kwatts every city

oh no, I think I lost my mind

 

[Edgecrusher]

EDIT: Got it: iPower is used to calculate the players strength. There are a lot of things having something to do with Power, but in sense of energy (see nuclear power plant), that must be the reason why I missed it. However, with this I could realize your suggestion. The problem is, that I don't know what an adequate value for this property could be. Tomorrow I'll check again if this property can be seen from inside the game, but I don't think so. In this case the player wouldn't see what's the unique on this building. And it could cause the following: what if you have a lot of this UBs, but only few and / or weak units? Your opponent would recognize you as powerful (because he is stupid) and start a war "until it is too late". In this case the higher power rate could be a disadvantage. Don't know if this is a realistic scenario. Maybe it is also a question of the right power value... And what if we could create an adequate power rate for ancient times? Would it be still okay for medieval times or would it be too weak? In this case the UB could loose it's importance very soon. Has anyone tried on this?

Regarding the Power question. It really depends on the AI you are fighting. I believe some AI will try to "take you down" if you are indeed "too strong", while others will fear you. So it all depends on the situation.

Anyway to answer your question as to values
of the Non-Wonders
8: Scotland Yard
6: Military Academy
4: Ger
3: Barracks, Citadel, Dun, Ikhanda,
2: Assembly Plant, Castle, Dike, Drydock, Factory, Forge, Industrial Park, Levee, Mint, Stables, Wall
1:Shale Plant, Totem Pole and Trading Post

As you can see. The only buildings with a power rating, are in 1 way or another associated with the Military. All of the "Production" type buildings (Factory Forge, Industrial Park, Drydock, Levee), and their coresponding UB (Mint, Assembly Plant and Dike) are all "2'. I believe they are all "2" because production is basically "liquid" military. More Production in a city = quicker you can pump out a unit.

That leaves buildings that are considered "Military" by nature and UB's that give a little boost to military. All of these give +EXP, or a promotion to Units, thus making them stronger when they are produced.
*note the exception is the Shale Plant, which I am guessing gets a +1 bonus because of its increased production over the Coal Plant.

To Sum Up:
1: Shale Plant, Totem Pole and Trading Post are all UB's, their "normal" version does not have a power ranking. I am guessing this is due to the increased production, exp, or free promotion.
2: Walls & Castle (their UBs get a +1 bonus to "power", the Dun and Citadel) Again the Dun probably got its bonus because of the free promotions, and the citadel because of the extra EXP, and likewise with the Ger (see below)
2: Stables (its UB, the Ger, gets a +2 bonus)
3: Barracks & Ikhanda are both 3. Now because the Ikhanda does not give an extra bonus to anything military related, it does not get a bonus.
6: Military Academy
8: Scotland Yard (I think this is a mistake, The other National Wonders that were military related (Heroic Epic and West Point) are 8's, Scotland Yard was probably an 8 because in pre-BTS it gave the civ the ability to produce spys. It was probably mistaked to bring it down, since now all it does is give a big boost to espionage, which doesn't seem to give any significance to "power". As it shouldnt because espionage should not be known to other civilizations.

The power ratings to me seem to be pretty straight forward. They are a product of the bonus. Not simply the Bonus. If you were to make the Power rating part of the actual bonus, it would have to be significally higher than its base building to justify. So it has the desired effect. Which is "Oh Here comes Atilla, he is really strong, give him what he wants, etc..)

Lastly, on a side note, I made excel "databases" for pretty much all of the XML values, so it was in an easy to read format, for just this instance. i.e. wanting to make a new building, unit, leader, etc... and wanting to compare it to existing items for balance, or whatever reason their may be. In addition, I tried to put all assemble descriptions for all the XML tages, (so I knew what they did). I also tried to test extreme values of these to determine how great of an effect they had on gameplay. If you want them, just let me know and I can send them to you. I know I have files for Buildings, Leaders, Units, Terrain (resources, improvements, etc..) and there is 1 more wich "extras" (specialists, and a few other things)