The Huns for BtS

[cool3a2]

@wolfshanze: So you say using a horse spearman as UB? In my opinion this wouldn't fit. Huns were famous for there Horse archers, not spearmen. We could replace the default horse archer by a horse spearman and make the UB a horse archer. I still don't like this, because it would change the default system of units in civ4 (I mean: Huns would have a horse spearman while others have a horsearcher, this is confusing and ugly, even if the units stats are the same and the only difference is the graphic) and my main point still remains: Huns would depend to much on the horse ressource.
As you said in the leader request thread, Huns disappeared very early in history. So for later units the whole mod will be "what if" based. I don't see any reason why not keeping the same method when it is about the elephants.
If the Huns are too much like the mongols or any other steppe nation, then simply only take one of them for your game. You even disliked the idea of including the huns to civ4, so simply do not install this civ. There still can be a difference between the steppe nations in the UB. I'd rather like to discuss on this topic. I also want to create a vanilla and a warlords version of this mod, so a building is required that works not only for BtS.
If this sounds roughly: sorry. It wasn't meant to be. Thank you very much for the Tegetthoff you have created, wolfshanze, but in this point I have different opinion.

@Ekmek: I tried it recently, but I had no success. I wanted to create a magyar (hungarian) horsearcher for my other mod, but the unit became distorted. But for what you requested Sceneviewer would be enough, I think. Do you only want to use the knight's graphic for the tarkan or do you mean the UU should replace the knight? As I said before, I don't think this is good idea either (sorry guys). At the time knights appeared there were no more huns. I don't say don't let them have a knight, but we should not make a UU out of it. EDIT2: This is more or less important for modding the unit. If the UU should be a horse archer based unit, I only have to replace the horse of my horsearcher with the knights. If it should be a Knight, then I have to replace the rider of the knight graphic with the one of my unit. Same if it should be a horse spearman. I need to know this before I start modding it, because I am too lazy to create 4 different units, one for every case.
EDIT: I can remember I have done something like this, but it looked ugly. The problem were the reins. I'm not sure if I used the knights horse or another one that had reins. Sure, you can remove the reins and I did, but it didn't looked good. Nevertheless I will try it.

 

[Edgecrusher]

IMO a War Elephant replacement makes perfect sense. As mentioned, the Huns were not near sources of elephants. They also were very mobile, something Elephants are not.

Giving them a movement 2 "Elephant" (which happens to be a horse), is fine.

 

[cool3a2]

Well, they didn't know elephants, and? They didn't know planes, tanks, nuclear bombs... You don't want to replace one of this, right? Why do you want to replace the elephant? This whole mod is a "what if", well: what if the huns would traveld to south, not to west, and entered and conquered india? If you are not playing a scenario, you won't play on a map representing the earth. In this case simply everything is different from what happened historical. For me there remains the problem that the huns would be in serious problem if they wouldn't have access to horses. What kind of units do remain? Bowman, swordsman and axeman. All of them are very slow units. Never built elephants yet, but I'd say they are faster then foot units and they sincerly have any advantage. In the case of a war this would be a serious disadvantage. Don't know why nobody can see this... Not to mention again that two horse based units for the same civ in the same era would be boring...

EDIT: Okay, I've checked it: it is not faster than foot units, but it is much stronger. If there are no horse and elephant units, the strongest unit is 5 or 6. That's a difference, it is even stronger than horse archers. Elephants are also good against horse units. All this advantages would miss for the huns.

 

[Edgecrusher]

I the the argument is to have it replace something that isnt the Horse Archer. The Mongols (another Central Steppes empire) has a horse archer replacement. That and the fact Attila and Genghis will probably "act" similar. Why include the Huns at all? sounds to me like you have 2 civs that are pretty much identical, except for a few visual differences between the LH, UU, etc.. That to me is more boring than 2 Horse Units in the same age.

I really dont see a problem with having it replace the War Elephant.
The War Elephant is a strong (but slow) unit for its age.
Replacing it with a "Tarkan" with +1 movement, yea you got 2 "horse units" for the age, but they have 2 completly different skillsets. Also the Huns were known for their Horsemanship, why not give them 2 horse units?

Horse Archer can Flank siege
Tarkan will take over cities. (which makes sense to me because isnt that what the Huns did? Weren't they one of the first "Empires" to compete with the Roman Army, conquoring 70 cities of the Eastern Roman Empire?
Its not like the Tarkan will have the Flanking vs Siege like the Horse Archer. All the Huns would be getting is a faster War Elephant.

I can see your concern about not having access to a horse, but I am fine with it. Thats the luck aspect of the game. I can't remember how many times I havent started near a crucial resource. Or in the later game find out my empire that consumes 1/4 of the world, for one reason or another does not have oil. If the Huns dont start near Horses, I am fine with that. Macemen are just as strong and just a few techs after.

but whatever, each his own.

Also concerning the Unique Building Why not make it a "Yurt"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yurt

 

[Ekmek]

I can see your concern about not having access to a horse, but I am fine with it. Thats the luck aspect of the game. I can't remember how many times I havent started near a crucial resource. Or in the later game find out my empire that consumes 1/4 of the world, for one reason or another does not have oil. If the Huns dont start near Horses, I am fine with that. Macemen are just as strong and just a few techs after.

but whatever, each his own.

Also concerning the Unique Building Why not make it a "Yurt"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yurt

I was thinking about a unique building. I think (in my mod at least) I'm going to just have the terrain imp Pasture be the graphic for a UB pasture. it will be a stable replacement for the Huns but instead of giving +2 promotion for horse units, I'm going to make it produce 1 horse unit - like how hollywood does. yeah this may lead to a ton of horse unit resources but not sure it will be that unbalancing except giving them permanent access to horses. if too unbalancing i may make it a Unique nation wonder (nothing says those cant have UB replacements). when i get a game going i'll try it out and report back.

 

[Ekmek]

who knows how to swap unit stuff from one nif to another. for some reason it doesn't work the same as i do leaderheads. attached is an export of a tarkan i did. i didnt finish skinning (I tried making the spear a torch) but cant get it in game to test.

 

[Wolfshanze]

I was thinking about a unique building. I think (in my mod at least) I'm going to just have the terrain imp Pasture be the graphic for a UB pasture. it will be a stable replacement for the Huns but instead of giving +2 promotion for horse units, I'm going to make it produce 1 horse unit - like how hollywood does.

This may actually be a cool idea... you don't need horses to build the pasture, it's just your UB, and when you build it, you get the horse resource. This means you will always have access to your UU... and if the Hun UU is the Elephant Replacement (which requires the Horse), you'll have what you need for Horse Archers and the UU (you'd still need Iron for Knights though, so could be deprived of that).

I think it's a good idea.

As for having "too many" horse resources... I don't think that's a problem... think about it this way.

If you want horses, talk to the Hun guy... he always has some to spare (sounds reasonable).

Also, maybe you won't trade them with anybody (why would I allow Civ-X to get horses and turn them against me in the form of horse units?). I usually go all game without ever trading Horses or Iron to anyone just to keep them from getting good stuff to turn against me.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[cool3a2]

@Ekmek: maybe I'll take a look at it at the evening (european time, which means then it should be afternoon in the us), but I have a problem with my unit project as well. Interestingly my unit is based on this horsearcher as well... If you are interested in that topic, please read this thread.

EDIT: Sometimes Sceneviewer crashes when working on nifs. Usually you only have to open the unit you want to add the parts to and add the other unit the parts are from. Then open the node you want to add the new part to and move the part there by drag'n'drop. If this doesn't work you can try either bone transplantation (see sceneviewer tutorials) which doesn't help for every purpose, or do it via nifskope.

 

[Edgecrusher]

The idea sounds interesting.

Say you give them the "Hun Pasture" Improvement, able to be built on a grassland, then give it a %chance to "discover" a horse resource. Similar to how Mines can "discover" Gems, Gold, Silver, etc...

If fact, you can theoretically call the new Improvement "Yurt", give it the ability to discover horses (as mentioned above), Then the worker has to build a pasture over the Yurt to gain access to it.

Giving them the ability to "discover' vs automatically giving them the resource might help eliminate them having an insane amount of Horse Resources floating around.

I can try it when I get home and report back. Also for what its worth, I recoded Attila. The code for his personality, was making him a peace-lover. If you want that I can upload it.

 

[Ekmek]

yeah please post the more aggressive attila

 

[Wolfshanze]

yeah please post the more aggressive attila

If you want a good AI code for Atilla, why not copy the LH code for Montezuma? Seems Monty is well regarded as the biggest crazy war-monger in Civ4.

 

[Ekmek]

i think so. i was hoping that maybe someone that knows the personality code could also make him less reckless and more likely to raze cities all the time.

 

[Fierabras]

I was thinking of mixing Genghis with Montezuma for personality. Genghis has

<iRazeCityProb>75</iRazeCityProb>

compared to Monty's 50.

 

[Ekmek]

75 may be good. may be even 95. It would be interesting to play against a player that if you went to war with and he took your city, you know its gone for good.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Are you kidding? Attila's gotta be a full 100! For aggressiveness, gotta be 100, for production, only military units. This guy has to be the ultimate warmongerer with no other benefits.

 

[Ekmek]

sounds good to me

 

[Edgecrusher]

Attila Personality

Here is what I have been expiramenting with., The personalities are one thing I have been "studying" alot recently, in preparation of this Leaderhead modpack I have been silently/slowly working on (incidently it uses a number of your LHs). The goal was to get most of the civs up to at least 2/3 leaders per. i.e. adding Francis to HRE, Cleopatra to Egypt, Selassie to Ethiopia, etc.. I sure someone will beat me to the punch. Anyway, I didn't like "copying" the personalities of others. I would prefur to make a truely unique LH.

This was only the first "go round" with Attila, I had to play a few more games vs him to get it right.
(incidently, Attila has a trait called "Tactical", this is a trait I have which gives +25% construction to Siege Units, it was ment to be given to the "general/military minded LH's, like Attila, Tamerlame, Patton, and a few others.)
I included the Chart wth all the leaders in it, so you can compare.
I also included a redone flag (the one you had, was stretched out. I also redid the color combination so it was the same as the button.
Finally I fixed the Pedia entries for a few things.

I hope I didn't overstep my bounds.

 

[Ekmek]

bounds? there are no bounds... i'll check it out. thx for the help.

 

[strategyonly]

Its the old Flag, dont want to use that one, need the one that Cool has, how about it, cool?
How ya doing on units, i think i have a few to add?

 

[cool3a2]

I can always need good units. Till now I always wanted to use the default units of civ4, because we don't know how a hunnic musketeer would look like.

I will upload the flag later, at the moment I have to do some things because I will travel to Hungary on friday. But you will sincerly get it before I will be away.

About Attilas traits... I don't know, but I have a different opinion again. You all draw a babarian picture of him, but the truth is that he lived in the roman empire for a while and knew them very well. He also had good contacts to the western roman empire, at least at the beginning. He wanted to stabilize his empire and make it able to survive in europe. Of course he went into war, but who didn't at this time? He was a strategist, not a bloodthirsty barbarian. AFAIK Attila was also a fan of culture and wanted to copy the roman empire.

Although I find Ekmeks suggestion about the UB interesting, because it would solve the problem with elephant vs. horse based UUs, I don't like the idea giving the Huns endless horses. I wouldn't trate them either (so in this context it wouldn't be an advantage), but I think it is still overrated. I can remember that when I was in war in early times, my first target were always the enemies horse ressource to take them away the chance to start a fast counteroffensive against me. Against the Huns it would be very hard to win a war. This could be interesting, but also disappointing. Finaly I don't think this wouldn't be too realistic. Don't believe the Huns had mass breeding camps for horses. Unfortunately I have no own idea for a UB at the moment, but I will think about it a lot. Damn UBs, it took a lot time till we found one for Hungary...


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