The Huns for BtS

[Edgecrusher]

There is actually 3 Monument UB's, the Egyptian Obilisk, the Ethiopian Stele, and "Native American" Totem Pole.
The Barracks has 1, the Ikhanda (sp?) of the Zulu.

Either Idea I think is fine. I think the goal should be to make the bonus fit the culture. A free Priest might work, but were the Huns religious?, That and a free priest will produce a great prophet in 33 turns, so roughly 60 turns in the game, the Huns have a Prophet.
That and look at the Egyptian Obilisk. Its bonus is the ability specialize a priest. If the Huns have a UB that replaces a monument, that gives them a free priest, right there its more valuable.

A Yurt isnt perfect, and I can see that it is just another name for a Ger. But alot of the UBs are just that cultures "name" for a bulding. The Roman Forum is a marketplace, an Obilisk, Stele and Totem Poles are all Monuments, etc...

Again using Wikipedia as a guide (so take it for what its worth) it says
"The establishment of the 5th century Hunnic Empire marks a historically early instance of horseback migration. Under the leadership of Attila the Hun, the Huns achieved hegemony over several rivals by using the composite bow, their highly maneuverable hit-and-run tactics with their horsemanship, and a well-organized system of taxation. Supplementing their wealth by plundering wealthy Roman cities to the south, the Huns maintained the loyalties of a number of tributary tribes."

This suggests 2 things:
1) UU: A Horse Archer with an exceptionally high Withdrawel % (50 to 60%). This is hit and run tactics. I actually think the Horse Archer should be renamed/given new art and called "Horseman".
Then a new unit should be created called "Horse Archer and make it a 5 STR with a high withdrawel %, but thats another discussion.
2) UB: "Well-Organized system of Taxation" Maybe an early building that normally doesnt produce wealth, produces Wealth?, or along the same vein as the Sumerian Ziggurat, a Bank that is available with a much earlier Tech, maybe currency?

 

[kivanc]

This suggests 2 things:
1) UU: A Horse Archer with an exceptionally high Withdrawel % (50 to 60%). This is hit and run tactics. I actually think the Horse Archer should be renamed/given new art and called "Horseman".
Then a new unit should be created called "Horse Archer and make it a 5 STR with a high withdrawel %, but thats another discussion.
2) UB: "Well-Organized system of Taxation" Maybe an early building that normal doesnt produce wealth, produces Wealth?, or along the same vein as the Sumerian Ziggurat, a Bank that is available with a much earlier Tech, maybe currency?

Very good suggestions. let me comment
1) this idea is very similar to what I suggested. free flanking1 will give an extra chance of withdrawal. and I also added combat1 and tile defense ability. If you think it will be overpowered, then just remove combat 1. 5 strength is less. even if you wouldn't give only 1 of combat1&flanking1, you shoudl still make it 6. why do you nerf it?

2) yeah, i really strongly believe, they need an economic boost.
AGG/CHA will already make them too much militaristic. So that's why I suggested a free priest which would give 1 gold, 1 hammer and 3 beakers with mids/representation.
your ideas on this 2nd issue is very simialr what I'm trying to create. So I would suggest focusing on such. a little economic boost.
free unit support would suit this as well. it would both be a militaristic move and help him about economy.

 

[kivanc]

what about this then?

* replaces barracks
* -25% less distance maintenance

the reason? by the help of strong tax system encouraged by frightening military power, less corruption occurs even in cities far away than capital.
this also suits the nomadic property of the Huns.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Im not saying nerf the Horse Archer for the Huns. I was saying what the game "should have done from the start was basically have 2 ancient/classical horse units instead of 1.

1) Horseman (Everything the same as the current Horse Archer, Strength of 6, same cost, flanking, everything). Give it art that is basically a Spearman on a horse. The art for the Companion Cavalry could be used.
So your basically just renaming and changing the art of the horse archer. Everything else is the same (So nothing lost).
This would be the unit that the Keshik and Numibian Cavalry replace.

2) Create a "new" unit. Call this one Horse Archer and give it a strength of 5. Horse Archers were less armored, and thus more vulnerable if ambushed. No other bonuses except for a 50% withdrawel. This would fall in line with what the Horse Archer was historically used as. Which was basically a hit-and-run/skirmish tactic. Horse Archers never were used to "flank" enemy lines. Horseman were used to do that, hense why Alexander the Great called them Companian Cavalry. This also alleviates another complaint. The Mongols relyed heavily on Mounted Archers in Warfare. having the Keshik replace the Horse Archer basically removes the Horse Archer from the Mongel Arsenal (The Keshik use a lance). So what your telling me is a civilization that used and perfected Mounted Archers in combat can never build a horse archer.

Anyway, that is an argument for another day. What I was saying for a Hunnic UU. was to replace the Horse Archer (which I think should be called the Horseman), with a unit that has a higher withdrawel %, or as you mentioned Flanking I. although giving it a promotion is alot more valuable because the Promotion will stay on the unit when it upgrades, where as just giving the unit a withdrawel % wont.
Giving it more than 1 small bonus makes it overpowered. The French UU just has +1 movement. The Vulture has +1 STR (along with less vs Melee). All just 1 small bonus. Giving it Combat I, Flanking I and a defence bonus, What will kill it? a Spearman would attack it with an 8 STR, vs 7.2 (if you only have it with a 10% Defensive bonus. That doesnt include any other promotions you give it. Put a Barracks and Stable in the city that produces is and you could potentially have the UU with Shock and Combat II that gives it a base STR of 9 without any defensive bonus vs the Spearman's 8. Thats why I think 1 small bonus. It doesnt have to guarentee eliminating 1 neighbor. Thats not the purpose of the UU's the purpose is to add some flavor and a little boost. Even Rome's Praetorian can be taken down by a normal Axeman without any promotions.

I am going to have to create the 2nd Horseman for my mod and try it out. See if I can get a UNITAI that will allow the AI to use it as a hit-and-run instead of a straight on attack.

 

[cool3a2]

Sorry, you can't convince me to give the Huns two horse related units. It would make the game monotonous plus my other objections. However, I am open for any suggestions about the UB, although I think a monument replacement would be suboptimal.

 

[cool3a2]

Okay, I don't know if there is somebody still watching this thread... First of all I changed Attilas traits from AGG/EXP to AGG/CHA. I also changed the UB to be a barracks replacement. These are the properties compared to ordinary barracks:

+2 (to enlarge the Huns territory)
+1 experience for mounted units

I didn't made it cheaper because aggressive leaders have a production bonus on barracks anyway and Attila is aggressive. I thought on giving it a happiness bonus, but charismatic leader have that bonus anyways.

At the moment I kept the UU, because I found it fits very well.

NOTE: The new version is not yet online. I want to make some changes to the civilopedia entries of the Huns first.

 

[Agent327]

Tarkan fits very well. (Actually reminds me of the Huns in Age of Empires.) I noticed - although the Barracks in itself are good - a UB somewhere that gives cash from plunder (although I wouldn't know how that would be implemented). I don't think the Huns were really about culture, they were more like the Vikings in the official Viking mod, leaving behind no cities or settlements, but a lot of gold after they virtually disappeared from history.

(I've actually been thinking about a Hun scenario, but with the - Mongol - Camp unit, spawning new troops; unfortunately this hasn't come about yet.)

 

[cool3a2]

The reason for giving them a culture bonus was to make their territory grow fast. If this could have been done in a different way, I may have done it the other way around. On the other hand they have propably build a wooden palace in Tápiószentmárton (that's the background of the Attila LH), I wouldn't call that nothing...

That plunder idea is interesting in deed, but I also have no clue how to do that and that may be a weak bonus since it doesn't happen every day that someone conquers a city. Not in real life and also not in civ4, or are you guys in war all the time

 

[strategyonly]

I added the Huns in my next version of NWA, thx. But i changed somethings around and added more flavor units, of course. Infact i am playing as them right now and kicking some booty.

 

[cool3a2]

Sure, make your own changes to this mod. I'd also like to add some unit graphics, but I want to have them eurasian style, not asian. Unfortunately good eurasian units are rare. I already requested such units for my magyar mod (and I could use those graphics for this mod, too), but I got no answer. Seems like nobody needs eurasian units

 

[Agent327]

EDU or Varietas Delectat doesn't have any suitable unit style? You could use (or ask to have modified) Turkish units (they might be considered Eurasian).

On the other hand they have propably build a wooden palace in Tápiószentmárton (that's the background of the Attila LH), I wouldn't call that nothing...

They left behind no cities or settlements (and the Magyars settled pn the Great Hungarian plain at least 2-3 centuries later). All that's been found are gold stashes, which are probably Hunnic, but they left no written records (the accounts of the Huns' presence are Byzantine mostly). After Attila's death their confederation dissolved and they disappeared from history.

That plunder idea is interesting in deed, but I also have no clue how to do that and that may be a weak bonus since it doesn't happen every day that someone conquers a city. Not in real life and also not in civ4, or are you guys in war all the time

I'd agree the bonus would be a limited one (although you can also plunder villages and such), but as said the Huns were more interested in gold, which they extracted in trade of peace. (They did in fact conquer and plunder many Byzantine cities for which they used siege engines copied from Roman originals.) Actually plunder happened most frequently in war, although officially it was named "foraging". Armies on the move require a lot of supplies (although not in Civ).

 

[cool3a2]

Oh, yeah. Varietas Delectat. I forgot this, I'll check it. Maybe there are units that haven't been posted as single units in the database. I'll report later.

EDIT: I have checked Varietas Delectat now. Well, there are some useful units, like...
- the mongol musketman (maybe some other unit can be made out of it)
- mongol chariot
- mongol axeman and spearman
- turkish warior
- turkish archer
- turkish knight
I would have to replace the head of the turkish units and I could also use some of the units of my Magyar units. I think it should be possible to get most of the ancient units, but medieval units are rare. However, this requires a bunch of work. At the moment I haven't added new units.

I have uploaded the new version, see first post.

 

[Agent327]

medieval units are rare.

There's also EMU mod (not updated I think, but units - if any - might work).

 

[tsentom1]

I made a version of the Huns in my total mod (Thomas' War).

I decided to give them another horse unit so to speak, but did this by turning their catapult into a horse unit (similar to how the persian chariot is actually a horseback looking unit). I used the default Indo-European Horse Archer graphics which are built into the game and not used. I gave it the downside of needing horses (which is pretty serious negative) but increased it's movement by 1 and changed in the XML the max number of units it could do collateral damage on as well as the collateral damage cap as both of those are attributes not changed in any other UU.

I also gave it a Yurt (my Magyar has a Jurta, all stables with slightly different bonus but I actually like that it's technically the same building just slightly changed over cultures) for a UB (used the Camp unit graphics from Warlords scenario) and made it increase enemy war weariness to reflect the fear the mongols instilled in other civilizations as they moved around and conquered. I used the Statue of Zeus XML modifier for this, but set it to a low percent like 2% so it increases with every city but at the same time will eventually expire (since it was a stable) which balances it out giving you a great bonus at a specific era in the game and then canceling before it has the chance to become too powerful.

I actually used your XML for the cities and civlopedia civ description. I think it's a great mod! Just wanted to throw out more ideas to the forum.

 

[tsentom1]

Also, in referring to unit graphics. The game has a lot of built in unit graphics that aren't used including mongolian/hunnic settlers, pikeman, horse archers, archers, swordsmen, (I think a knight) etc. They were all incorporated for that scenario in Warlords and still exist in the game files with BTS. Just search the art defines unit files.

 

[cool3a2]

I'll check what you said about the unit graphics. Thank you. I'll also think about your suggestions about the UU and UB.

 

[hrochland]

Hmmmm, good

 

[Wyz_sub10]

Hey cool, if you're still around I'd like to add this to Gold 5.0.

 

[cool3a2]

Sure, add it. If you have some cool eurasian looking unit graphics, let me know, please. I still plan to add some unique unit graphics to the mod, I also find some useful things, but could need more and have no time at the moment to update the mod.

 

[cool3a2]

Updated the mod.

Changes:
- added Bakuels ancient and medieval Hun units (at least most of them)
- made Tarkan being a knight replacement, difference: starts with shock (replaced unit and stats are open for discussion)
- add hun citystyle; some unique building graphics and the following as ancient and classical citystyle:

As you see, the granary and the stable (yurt art) overlap. They also do in case of mongol yurt (instead hun stable), so this may be another firaxis bug...

Currently I am waiting for some more work of Bakuel. Next upload is also planed to be with installer.

EDIT: Downloadlink is in the first post of course.