aelf
Ashen One
So Democracy for SoL or Chemistry first, guys? I need more of you to weigh in on the issue.
The Immortal Challenge 2: For the Fatherland
- Thread starter aelf
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If your economy can afford it i would def go for Grenadiers and then canons before democracy. If you feel your economy cant keep up and you need a rebuild before going for the next guy i would just get democracy and build the sol. With so many cities it is a huge boon. You can ofc combine it with Caste System in peacetime to generate even more reasearch. Would grenadiers and canons be enough against the riflemen and cavalery the AI allways run? I would prolly get the last city get SoL then get chemistry and Steel before going to war. Canons are amzing. On another note Democracy also have a huge trading potential and you dont realy want to trade away chemistry or at least steal.
Philosophical and Representation both make SoL a priority. But one other factor that hasn't been mentioned yet is the Assembly Plant. With 2 additional engineers available, free specialists become even more powerful for modern production, both for military builds and a possible space race.
carl corey
Deity
You seem to be pretty low on production, so despite all the appeal of the SoL I'm not sure I'd go for it. On the other hand you can try to arm yourself a little better and take some of Washington's territory. He'll certainly have Rifles, so you need Grenadiers for them.
Not sure what to say about Issy. If you're going for Washington you still have time to decide until you have Grens anyway. If not and you want a building period combined with going for Democracy then you can consider vassalizing her earlier. Of course, after you take Cordoba, it puts too much pressure on your shrine city.
Also, I'd research Drama and build Theatres. You trade for Dye, so that's 1 happiness with Theatres. Another 10% culture slider mean a total of 3 happiness points. I think it's worth it.
Not sure what to say about Issy. If you're going for Washington you still have time to decide until you have Grens anyway. If not and you want a building period combined with going for Democracy then you can consider vassalizing her earlier. Of course, after you take Cordoba, it puts too much pressure on your shrine city.
Also, I'd research Drama and build Theatres. You trade for Dye, so that's 1 happiness with Theatres. Another 10% culture slider mean a total of 3 happiness points. I think it's worth it.
carl corey
Deity
Another (smaller) suggestion: your HE city is working a cottage and a scientist. I'd switch it to work food and production tiles only, with the Engineer specialist. You have production and unit promotion bonuses in it, I wouldn't waste citizens on other things.
I'd say he can vassalise Izzy straight away and start building for an attack on Washington. If Izzy is left with Cordoba she'll be much more useful than if she only keeps the weak northern cities. Taking Cordoba will significantly delay the attack on Washington. Boston is just asking to be taken (it seems to have the Great Wall) and Izzy's culture means you can attack it 1 turn after declaring war on Washington. Also due to the new rules on vassal's culture in the Fat Cross, Madrid will be able to work all its tiles and it looks a good city ready for really fast growth (I already tried Izzy's capitulation in the save game)
Washington has Replaceable Parts and Gunpowder and could be going for Rifling. Attacking now could be a window of opportunity that won't come back until you get grenadiers and cannons. I suppose an alternative research path would be Military Tradition (and trade for Gunpowder) to build cavalry. I find cavalry, built with a stables giving combat + pinch, are very effective attacking against rifles as long as the cultural defence is removed by trebs or cats.
carl corey
Deity
Yes, you can work the fat cross once you vassalize Izzy, but you'll still need lots of culture to be sure the city doesn't go into revolt. I've had that happen once: the city periodically went into revolt and took away my shrine and Wall Street income for a few turns. I tried everything (troops, culture) but couldn't beat the nearby capital's culture. Not pretty.
aelf
Ashen One
Are you sure it's running a scientist? It's an engineer, IIRC. Anyway, the cottage is acting as a half farm. The city has a couple of flood plain farms so growth can be a little too fast.
I thought vassals can't have cultural control on any tiles inside your BFC now? That would make revolts impossible.
carl corey
Deity
It's Hamburg, right? I think it had an Engineer and a Scientist in it. Probably just grew. Got it about the cottage. I'm not used to playing with such low happiness caps, so it seemed weird. 
And while vassals can't actually work tiles that are closer to your cities, they will still have cultural influence on them. That means a captured city can still go into revolt. And you don't want a happy AI farming over cottages in the shrine city!
That one also happened to me. The shrine you built will indeed contribute to your culture, but if you do take Izzy as a vassal right now you'll still have to culture-up Madrid for a while.
And while vassals can't actually work tiles that are closer to your cities, they will still have cultural influence on them. That means a captured city can still go into revolt. And you don't want a happy AI farming over cottages in the shrine city!
That one also happened to me. The shrine you built will indeed contribute to your culture, but if you do take Izzy as a vassal right now you'll still have to culture-up Madrid for a while.
aelf
Ashen One
And while vassals can't actually work tiles that are closer to your cities, they will still have cultural influence on them. That means a captured city can still go into revolt. And you don't want a happy AI farming over cottages in the shrine city!
I don't think so. I think vassals can't have cultural control within your BFC, period.
Madrid will have no problem from Cordoba's culture. It is a Holy city with a shrine pumping out 17 culture per turn already and with several cultural buildings it could build. It is already 29% german (with no chance of revolt) despite only being owned a short time. Most of the culture it is fighting in the surrounding tiles is from Madrid itself when Izzy owned it as a holy city and capital.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Am I the only one who's thrown by the fact that aelf is researching Democracy while still warring with Axemen? 
Definitely Chemistry. Democracy takes too long and SoL even longer. You won't see any benifts for a long time. I see that the AI's have a lot of cash now. If I were you I will sell Liberalism for magacash to everyone, Guilds to Louis (maybe for Drama as well, or do you fear the trade limit from HC?), that will give you 2000+ cash for 100% science
Gunpowder will take 5 turns. Maybe HC will get it soon, then I would even trade him PP for it. Then Chemistry with help from GS. Then ungrade CR3 maces to CR3 grenadiers. They mow down rifles like no tomorrow. Just make sure you have some pinch grenadiers to cover counter attacks. Then Steel and cannons.
The more you wait the more the AI's get ahead. I think you want to take out Washington ASAP. Put up theaters everywhere, once you get Chemistry, workshop Cologne and chop to get Globe up. Then farm Cologne, research towards rifles and draft like a fiend in Cologne.
Also why are you woking forested tiles in Berlin and Cologne? Surely corn and another scientist is better? More workshops in HE city, you want to maximise the +100 production. Don't run scientist there, it will become a monster unit factory after Chemistry. You should aim for a topline unit every 2 turns. Your cities have a lot of potential, either capture or whip more workers to improve the key cities.
carl corey
Deity
Up to what cultural influence can the city still go into revolt? Anyway, thanks UncleJJ for looking up how much Madrid is under aelf's influence.
As for cultural control within your BFC here's an example (didn't find the one with the shrine):
Notice that vassals can still control tiles in your fat cross (horse tile, cottage 2S1E of Thebes) if they are at equal distance or closer to their own cities. That city also went into revolt numerous times, but it's true that it's bombarded from all sides by Egyptian culture. I was just trying to finish wars fast that's why I didn't care to capture the surrounding cities. It is indeed lower on cultural percentage than your Madrid, so you might still be safe; don't know the exact numbers. And I think in the game with the shrine city I was talking about it wasn't my shrine, so I gained no culture from it, right?
As for cultural control within your BFC here's an example (didn't find the one with the shrine):
Notice that vassals can still control tiles in your fat cross (horse tile, cottage 2S1E of Thebes) if they are at equal distance or closer to their own cities. That city also went into revolt numerous times, but it's true that it's bombarded from all sides by Egyptian culture. I was just trying to finish wars fast that's why I didn't care to capture the surrounding cities. It is indeed lower on cultural percentage than your Madrid, so you might still be safe; don't know the exact numbers. And I think in the game with the shrine city I was talking about it wasn't my shrine, so I gained no culture from it, right?
Not quite right. If they have another city closer to the tile than your newly captured city the special rule does not apply. In that case you have to overwhelm the culture on that tile the normal way and that can take a very long time. This only occurs when the vassal has a city 3 or 4 tiles away from your city.
Edit: As demonstrated graphically by carl corey while I was writing this
Galileo44
Great Scientist
Wow, nice vassalage there Carl!
carl corey
Deity
Thanks, Galileo.
UncleJJ, why were you saying earlier that Madrid has no chance of revolt? I don't really understand that part. Is it the cultural influence percentage? I asked above how much does it take to be sure a city won't revolt, don't know if you saw the question. I'd really like to know if there's a limit and how much it is. Though it's probably also influenced by the troops you keep in the city.
UncleJJ, why were you saying earlier that Madrid has no chance of revolt? I don't really understand that part. Is it the cultural influence percentage? I asked above how much does it take to be sure a city won't revolt, don't know if you saw the question. I'd really like to know if there's a limit and how much it is. Though it's probably also influenced by the troops you keep in the city.
I am not sure what determines whether a city will revolt or not. It seems to be based on the % cultural value and amount of culture per turn that enemy (or vassal) cities are applying to the city square.
In this case I was curious as to what would happen in aelf's game and "cheated" in the sense that I offered Izzy the chance to capitulate and she did. Then looking at the Madrid city screen I can see there is no chance of revolt. That might be because Cordoba is too far away to apply culture to Madrid (I need to check that). Or maybe the culture from Madrid outweighs that from Cordoba in some way. I doubt Cordoba is putting out 17 per turn like Madrid is.
In this case I was curious as to what would happen in aelf's game and "cheated" in the sense that I offered Izzy the chance to capitulate and she did. Then looking at the Madrid city screen I can see there is no chance of revolt. That might be because Cordoba is too far away to apply culture to Madrid (I need to check that). Or maybe the culture from Madrid outweighs that from Cordoba in some way. I doubt Cordoba is putting out 17 per turn like Madrid is.
aelf
Ashen One
Am I the only one who's thrown by the fact that aelf is researching Democracy while still warring with Axemen?
There's only one axeman in the stack and he's just waiting to be upgraded
I think Cordoba is too far away. Since the tiles in Madrid's BFC are nearer to it than to Cordoba, the latter can't control them. And, IMO, since Cordoba does not control any tiles adjacent to Madrid, the latter cannot revolt. Or it could be simply due to the rule that a city taken from another civ will not be caused to revolt by the same civ's culture.
My understanding is the following:
Once the actual city tile (middle of fat cross) is below 50% culture (perhaps 50% and below?) then revolts can occur. The chance of a revolt then depends on the number of units in the city. It could depend on the actual culture %, but I think it only matters that it is less than 50%.
Sullla did some really nice analysis on the flipping probability of a city with tremendous culture pressure--it had 0% culture. The analysis indicated the flipping chances per turn were:
5 defenders = 0%
4 defenders = 1.07%
3 defenders = 3.21%
2 defenders = 5.36%
1 defender = 7.50%
0 defenders = 9.64%
I would link the post by Sullla going into this detail, but it is in an active competitive succession game thread and I don't want anyone to accidentally get spoiler info.
GS
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