The Immortal Challenge 2: For the Fatherland
- Thread starter aelf
- Start date
carl corey
Deity
I agree with aelf: if he's going to get the Pyrs the gambit is the way to go. I got them in an offline game of mine directly but I had stone connected and despite having a good capital I still had to sweat in fear that someone else would get them first! A GE on the other hand is still useful even if we miss the Pyramids.
It's been a while since I built the Oracle while not starting with Mysticism and being Spiritual, but I expect you'll cut it really close with all the research still to be done. I'd follow another "safe" route for the GL, combined with building Axes for a strike on Issy's holy city. With GL, 3 gold mines and a (hopefully enshrined) holy city your economy should be in very good shape.
In the capital I'd build settlers & workers until your happiness limit grows. You'll need the workers for pre-chops anyway. Some warriors too, for fogbusting, as others have already said. Anyway, interesting start. Can't wait for more!
It's been a while since I built the Oracle while not starting with Mysticism and being Spiritual, but I expect you'll cut it really close with all the research still to be done. I'd follow another "safe" route for the GL, combined with building Axes for a strike on Issy's holy city. With GL, 3 gold mines and a (hopefully enshrined) holy city your economy should be in very good shape.
In the capital I'd build settlers & workers until your happiness limit grows. You'll need the workers for pre-chops anyway. Some warriors too, for fogbusting, as others have already said. Anyway, interesting start. Can't wait for more!
Harbourboy
Deity
I think that gambit thing look awfully difficult to pull off at Immortal level with that start. It requires a lot of things to go just right. I would say that resource grabbing, barbarian busting, and Isabella rushing would be my choice if I was playing that game.
Syndrome Zed
Wanna see my quad laser?
Boy, who knew Isabella was a tramp? Sisiutil was smart to dump her when he did. 
Just one quick note - I think that's tundra up at the top of the scouted part of the map, in which case I think Isabella might be settling towards you pretty quickly. At least, she will if Brennus or one of the other rabble is on the opposite side of her from you. Could you (or should you?) maybe whip a settler instead of halting growth in Berlin, to try and get A and B taken care of before she tries to move in?
Other than that, I'm watching earnestly to see how the Pyramids gambit pans out (if you do decide to go for it, that is).
Just one quick note - I think that's tundra up at the top of the scouted part of the map, in which case I think Isabella might be settling towards you pretty quickly. At least, she will if Brennus or one of the other rabble is on the opposite side of her from you. Could you (or should you?) maybe whip a settler instead of halting growth in Berlin, to try and get A and B taken care of before she tries to move in?
Other than that, I'm watching earnestly to see how the Pyramids gambit pans out (if you do decide to go for it, that is).
Harbourboy
Deity
I think settlers are a reasonable idea to cut off Isabella, and also because, as has already been pointed out, there isn't very much else to build or whip at this stage and you're reaching your happy cap pretty quickly.
Side issue: how come I can come up with advice like this so easily when watching a game, but if I was actually playing the game, I'd be completely stuck and in all sorts of trouble?
Side issue: how come I can come up with advice like this so easily when watching a game, but if I was actually playing the game, I'd be completely stuck and in all sorts of trouble?
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Don't get me started.Boy, who knew Isabella was a tramp? Sisiutil was smart to dump her when he did.
In retrospect, you could have built a Settler instead of a barracks so you'd be ready to pounce on the copper as soon as it appeared. But you'll need a barracks sooner or later, and copper's close enough so I don't think you'll get beat to it, so it's not a big deal... this time.
This way, you'll be able to start building promoted Axemen as soon as the copper is hooked up. I like your dotmap; the only thing that makes me nervous is having the copper in the second ring. You'll need a border pop ASAP, so you'd best research Mysticism next so you can build a monument first thing in the copper/gold city. Or do you want to take a run at Stonehenge? It would have to go in the capital at this point; I never attempt Stonehenge in a 2nd city unless it has a good production resource in the first ring.
Harbourboy
Deity
Stonehenge complicates the Gambit because it would pollute the GE pool if put in the wrong place, wouldn't it? Again, the Gambit becomes more and more problematic in these circumstances. All the more reason to prove us and wrong and show that it can still be done!
As far as the gambit goes, the risk is not so much waiting on the GE to get pyramids. In my experience (monarch), there is a lot of risk in getting the oracle. You have to wait until you have things just right in order to finish the oracle. This adds enough turns to make it risky. I would guess it is much more so on immortal. If you get the oracle, the Pyramids usually happen (although that could still be a risk on immortal)
When considering the downside to this strategy, don't think so much as the downside being oracle+MC+forge+GE but no pyramids. Think of the downside as a lot of production/planning going towards the oracle, but we are beat to it.
GS
When considering the downside to this strategy, don't think so much as the downside being oracle+MC+forge+GE but no pyramids. Think of the downside as a lot of production/planning going towards the oracle, but we are beat to it.
GS
Ajidica
High Quality Person
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don't settle site A. little health with floodplains and you will probaly chop the forests, and you condem any cities on the cout to be almost a bad a a city on a one tile island with no resources because they have almost no room. from what i have heard with trade routs, coastal citieas are the best because you can get them really big and they get the best trade routs to fet the most commerce.
Harbourboy
Deity
Coastal cities are not always that great, especially when you don't have the financial trait to get more benefit from the sea commerce.
But back to The Gambit, I agree that the biggest risk is being beaten to Oracle. I haven't played much on Immortal but there must be a better than even chance that Gandhi or someone like him is sitting out there building the thing as well.
But back to The Gambit, I agree that the biggest risk is being beaten to Oracle. I haven't played much on Immortal but there must be a better than even chance that Gandhi or someone like him is sitting out there building the thing as well.
Chances are it seems likely your going for the Pyramids gambit, but in the event thay you miss out on the Pyramids but gain a GE, I'd use him on the Angkor Wat, it fit's in perfectly well with your SE, I wouldn't use it to rush GL unless your desperate, because you already have Marble and a whole lot of forest near your capital to assist you in building it the normal way.
Personally I'd build Angkor Wat in Isabella's Capital because it has a Holy City, with a shrine built it can assign an extra 3 Priest. Which is a total of 6 Priest, 3 from shrine 3 from Angkor Wat. Chances are being the Capital city it'll have Surplus food for you to assign those 6 Priest for an extra 12 hammers, If you build Angkor Wat there, with the surplus hammers you'd probably turn it into a Military Production City with HE and WP, or you can Save it For a normal Production City with IW... but it may be too late for it to be useful by that point in time.
Personally I'd build Angkor Wat in Isabella's Capital because it has a Holy City, with a shrine built it can assign an extra 3 Priest. Which is a total of 6 Priest, 3 from shrine 3 from Angkor Wat. Chances are being the Capital city it'll have Surplus food for you to assign those 6 Priest for an extra 12 hammers, If you build Angkor Wat there, with the surplus hammers you'd probably turn it into a Military Production City with HE and WP, or you can Save it For a normal Production City with IW... but it may be too late for it to be useful by that point in time.
For oracle builds research is usually the bottleneck - given the lack of good natural production for the oracle researching masonry is attractive but you have 4 offpath techs for this (hunting, agriculture, AH, masonry) which is a lot. The best chance of pulling off the slingshot would have been to build settler at size 2 (working both specials) and send it to the gold site to speed through the research. But in the current position, I think you are likely to miss out on the oracle, given that you're facing 2 spirituals and one industrious that starts with mysticism.
However, you could make a very nice GP farm in your capital by chopping out the great library and running other specialists with that food surplus.
However, you could make a very nice GP farm in your capital by chopping out the great library and running other specialists with that food surplus.
I think I would not try for the Oracle. A second worker, then warriors and settlers.
I'm not entirely sure about the dotmap. Is there a unit available to scout the coast for seafood? Site B looks food-limited. Dry Wheat is only a four food tile, and that's assuming Isabella doesn't culturally steal it from you. Perhaps shift B one space west, onto a plains hill and gaining 3 flood plains (each a 4 food tile) instead of the Wheat? City A is currently claiming two of those flood plains, however, which is why seafood would be ideal. Of course, you probably won't have the option of B unless you're planning to settle it before the Copper; Isabella will move in before you get a third city up, I expect. I'm looking at shifting C one west, too, to pick up some hills and make it a pure production city.
With Isabella so close, at least you won't face lots of barbarians.
peace,
lilnev
I'm not entirely sure about the dotmap. Is there a unit available to scout the coast for seafood? Site B looks food-limited. Dry Wheat is only a four food tile, and that's assuming Isabella doesn't culturally steal it from you. Perhaps shift B one space west, onto a plains hill and gaining 3 flood plains (each a 4 food tile) instead of the Wheat? City A is currently claiming two of those flood plains, however, which is why seafood would be ideal. Of course, you probably won't have the option of B unless you're planning to settle it before the Copper; Isabella will move in before you get a third city up, I expect. I'm looking at shifting C one west, too, to pick up some hills and make it a pure production city.
With Isabella so close, at least you won't face lots of barbarians.
peace,
lilnev
Harbourboy
Deity
I wouldn't be so sure about not facing barbarians. This is Immortal after all, where barbarians seem to pop up from just about every tile that is grey for even a turn. And there is a LOT of grey out to the east.
I don't think you will get the oracle. I'm also concerned about barbs rampaging in your borders sometime in the next 300 years. I find that on Immortal continent maps they come pretty fast and in high numbers around 2000BC. This is not criticism - it is just urging caution about overambitious plans.
Personally, I would forget wonders until the Great Library. That is the best wonder given your traits and if you beeline for Lit you will almost certainly get it. Make sure you get those gold mines working soon to help speed research.
Gaining land (settlers or axes) is more valuable than a wonder and much less risky (esp at Immortal). Three extra cities can assign six scientists if there is food. And it denies land to your opponents.
Personally, I would forget wonders until the Great Library. That is the best wonder given your traits and if you beeline for Lit you will almost certainly get it. Make sure you get those gold mines working soon to help speed research.
Gaining land (settlers or axes) is more valuable than a wonder and much less risky (esp at Immortal). Three extra cities can assign six scientists if there is food. And it denies land to your opponents.
soo much negativity about the oracle jeez. with marble in the capitol and the ability to chop plus pop rush you should be able to finish it in only a couple of turns. beeline since your behind and sling to metal casting. worst case scenario you get a great engineer as your 2nd great person.
to all those bashing.. don't forget this is aelf we're talking about. so far he's shown himself as a master of war, diplomacy, building, teching, etc.
go for it aelf!! of everyone I think you have a shot atleast regardless of position
NaZ
to all those bashing.. don't forget this is aelf we're talking about. so far he's shown himself as a master of war, diplomacy, building, teching, etc.
go for it aelf!! of everyone I think you have a shot atleast regardless of position
NaZ
Harbourboy
Deity
It's not about the time to build Oracle, but the time to research it, especially as you need to finish masonry first to get the marble. The very reason there is so much production in the capital is the very reason there is a low level of commerce to fund the research. It may be possible and I usually don't know what I am talking about. I have never won a game on immortal so I am not an authority. I am happy to be proven wrong though.
Let's see it differently :
with the oracle gambit, you end up with GEs and GPs.
The philo track is best leveraged by scientists.
Maybe it's not even a good thing to get the pyramids this way?
Focusing on the great library is probably easier and better. Plenty time to research masonry, and alpahbet is certainly never lost.
with the oracle gambit, you end up with GEs and GPs.
The philo track is best leveraged by scientists.
Maybe it's not even a good thing to get the pyramids this way?
Focusing on the great library is probably easier and better. Plenty time to research masonry, and alpahbet is certainly never lost.
Gold, gems and wine are the only visible happiness resources so far. The specialist economy requires higher population caps, so it would appear that the two research priorities are metal casting for double happiness on gold and gems and Monarchy for both Wine and Hereditary Rule's military police.
Great starting location, but a very challenging map overall. Good luck, Aelf!
Um ... and one spice I didn't see at first.
Great starting location, but a very challenging map overall. Good luck, Aelf!
Um ... and one spice I didn't see at first.
cabert,
if you pull off the follow up game correctly it is not an issue. either the site with the forge gets the pyramids, or you quickly settle a 3rd city (for aelf he has all those flood plains handy) and build the pyramids there. quickly get a library up and run 2 scientists from there on out. if you really want an engineer or good odds on one add an engineer from a forge built there. when you add in the great library you have:
4 GE points from pyramid
6 from engineer
12 from great library
12 from 2 scientists
that city will only spawn engineers and scientists from that point on.. engineers pop GREAT techs and free wonders are always nice
this should more than drown out the prophet points in the capitol. it has been configured for production anyway and will benefit from beurocracy in that regard.
site A actually would do nicely as a gp farm with that many flood plains, and just enough production to help if you hard build the library there.
I assume aelf is going there anyway. when you start the oracle in the capitol (hopefully you will have 3 forests pre-chopped to within 1 turn by the time you unlock the oracle) get the other city ready for the forge by starting on a monument while it grows. if you need protection get a warrior or two up and running first. right when the turn before the oracle finishes you'll need to whip the monument, to put the overflow towards the forge. your workers should already be chopping, or about to start that process. 7 turns means you must have already pre-chopped some of those forests as well.
NaZ
if you pull off the follow up game correctly it is not an issue. either the site with the forge gets the pyramids, or you quickly settle a 3rd city (for aelf he has all those flood plains handy) and build the pyramids there. quickly get a library up and run 2 scientists from there on out. if you really want an engineer or good odds on one add an engineer from a forge built there. when you add in the great library you have:
4 GE points from pyramid
6 from engineer
12 from great library
12 from 2 scientists
that city will only spawn engineers and scientists from that point on.. engineers pop GREAT techs and free wonders are always nice
this should more than drown out the prophet points in the capitol. it has been configured for production anyway and will benefit from beurocracy in that regard.
site A actually would do nicely as a gp farm with that many flood plains, and just enough production to help if you hard build the library there.
I assume aelf is going there anyway. when you start the oracle in the capitol (hopefully you will have 3 forests pre-chopped to within 1 turn by the time you unlock the oracle) get the other city ready for the forge by starting on a monument while it grows. if you need protection get a warrior or two up and running first. right when the turn before the oracle finishes you'll need to whip the monument, to put the overflow towards the forge. your workers should already be chopping, or about to start that process. 7 turns means you must have already pre-chopped some of those forests as well.
NaZ
