The Immortal Challenge 3: The Gathering Storm

[cabert]

Aelf!
Small nitpicking :
why are you demanding oil from bismarck? you certainly could have traded with him, you have loads of resources he doesn't have.
It would have earned you a positive modifier instead of 2 negatives (2 demands!).
That's really just to say I did read your update, since it doen't really matter what bismarck thinks of you .

 

[CivSetä]

That's really just to say I did read your update, since it doen't really matter what bismarck thinks of you .

Actually it can make a difference in UN voting, if Bismarck likes Peter more!

 

[UncleJJ]

Well done. You are going to win this one

I think the space race would be the most interesting way to win from here in terms of deciding what parts to build where and space elevators, + laboratories and so on. Peter has already built most of the small parts, 9 of the 13 needed, and you're still working on the Apollo Project. Besides that we all know you are the Master of Diplomacy and the greatest come back player on these boards, so now is the time to establish your reputation as Chief Space Engineer . Winning by diplomacy (again) is tantamount to cheating

Looking at the savegame I have one criticism, and that is happiness in several cities is bad due to "Motherland" and "We Refuse to fight Brothers and Sisters" and it could have been improved easily if you had planned a little better . If you had spammed a few missionaries as the conquest proceeded (and they are dirt cheap at this stage of the game) you could have diversified the religions and improved the happiness and culture. The only shrines in the game are Confusian and Taoism, both owned by Peter, so try to avoid using those. You can make Jewish missionaries in 2 cities and Taoism in several. It's a pity you didn't grab at least one Hindu monastery (Ravenna would have been a good option) before Scientific Method. That is something I always check for before trading or researching that tech. Monasteries are very useful in the late game and in THIS particular circumstance.

It is interesting that Nottingham has 3 unhappiness from "We Refuse to fight Brothers and Sisters" and I can't ever remember seeing that much and this late in a game before Berlin and Munich would both benefit immensely from getting 2 more religions helping to solve their happiness and cultural problems. This game was somewhat strange in that no religions were founded on your continent but I do feel you neglected the religious aspect of the game somewhat. I'm sure I know you well enough that you'll take my constructive criticism in the spirit it is offered

 

[cabert]

Actually it can make a difference in UN voting, if Bismarck likes Peter more!

REally? A vassal is compelled to vote for his master, so what's the point?

 

[CivSetä]

REally? A vassal is compelled to vote for his master, so what's the point?

??? IIRC some enemy vassals have voted for me... but probably you are right. I didn't know about that!

 

[aelf]

If we really want to win quickly, by diplomacy that is, it would serve us well to get the UN asap while we're at war to take full advantage of the mutual struggle bonus, something that we would need to get Brennus' vote (instead of him abstaining). In that sense, it would be wise to spend a GE on the UN. But if we're going to treat a diplo win as a bonus and still aim for space, we could just slow build the UN. That said, there's some chance that we would still win that way and deprive you guys of an exciting space race

That's really just to say I did read your update, since it doen't really matter what bismarck thinks of you .

Exactly By the way, asking for the vassal tribute does not constitute an arrogant demand. Go check it out.

Winning by diplomacy (again) is tantamount to cheating

Actually, space race is our favourite method of winning so far. We have 3 space victories, one diplo (this is considering the Ramesses game as a space win) and one domination. Adding one more to diplo, wouldn't hurt, although I agree space would be more fun. Don't ask me to do domination.

This game was somewhat strange in that no religions were founded on your continent but I do feel you neglected the religious aspect of the game somewhat. I'm sure I know you well enough that you'll take my constructive criticism in the spirit it is offered

It was difficult, though. This game was one long struggle. First we struggled with Caesar, then with Bismark and then we struggled with infrastructural builds and catching up with Peter. I'm not sure how well we could have made use of religion by building missionaries. Do you have any suggestion of how and when this could have been done? That could go into the final game analysis.

 

[cabert]

If we really want to win quickly, by diplomacy that is, it would serve us well to get the UN asap while we're at war to take full advantage of the mutual struggle bonus, something that we would need to get Brennus' vote (instead of him abstaining). In that sense, it would be wise to spend a GE on the UN. But if we're going to treat a diplo win as a bonus and still aim for space, we could just slow build the UN. That said, there's some chance that we would still win that way and deprive you guys of an exciting space race

I see nothing exciting in a space race. If you think you can manage a diplo win, just do it.
I wouldn't because I don't think brennus or monty will vote for you.
But I'm not a mesmerizing diplomat like you, so I can't tell for sure.

By the way, asking for the vassal tribute does not constitute an arrogant demand. Go check it out.

I was pretty sure I saw the "arrogant demand" after I asked a vassal for tribute. Maybe I had made an earlier demand... I'll check next time I have a vassal.

Even if you're right, it's in your best interest to have powerful vassals, so I still would have traded horses or happiness resources for the oil.

Actually, space race is our favourite method of winning so far. We have 3 space victories, one diplo (this is considering the Ramesses game as a space win) and one domination. Adding one more to diplo, wouldn't hurt, although I agree space would be more fun. Don't ask me to do domination.

conquest then

It was difficult, though. This game was one long struggle. First we struggled with Caesar, then with Bismark and then we struggled with infrastructural builds and catching up with Peter. I'm not sure how well we could have made use of religion by building missionaries. Do you have any suggestion of how and when this could have been done? That could go into the final game analysis.

I think the big factor is having at least a monastery of every kind.
You certainly didn't have a lot of time on hand to spam missionaries, but now they are impossible to build

 

[UncleJJ]

If we really want to win quickly, by diplomacy that is, it would serve us well to get the UN asap while we're at war to take full advantage of the mutual struggle bonus, something that we would need to get Brennus' vote (instead of him abstaining). In that sense, it would be wise to spend a GE on the UN. But if we're going to treat a diplo win as a bonus and still aim for space, we could just slow build the UN. That said, there's some chance that we would still win that way and deprive you guys of an exciting space race

I guess we could go for the Space Race and then after winning that come back to this savegame and try an alternative diplomatic ending, just to satisfy our curiosity as to who would vote for who. That would add interest to an already fascinating game.

Winning by diplomacy (again) is tantamount to cheating

Actually, space race is our favourite method of winning so far. We have 3 space victories, one diplo (this is considering the Ramesses game as a space win) and one domination. Adding one more to diplo, wouldn't hurt, although I agree space would be more fun. Don't ask me to do domination.

Apologies for my poor memory , I thought you'd won several diplomatic victories and only one Space Race. I stand corrected; and if you'd prefer to take this as a diplomatic victory to improve your reputation then feel free to do so.

It was difficult, though. This game was one long struggle. First we struggled with Caesar, then with Bismark and then we struggled with infrastructural builds and catching up with Peter. I'm not sure how well we could have made use of religion by building missionaries. Do you have any suggestion of how and when this could have been done? That could go into the final game analysis.

This game was tough in the early days, and again in the middle days due to the guys on the other continent fighting the wrong way round and giving Peter a free ticket. Only with the Internet did you shoot into the lead. Your huge land area should be fairly easy to leverage into a space victory but Peter is not out yet. Be sure to build Scotland Yard fast and find out what he's up to.

Concerning spamming religions under Free Religion: I would have built the monastery in Ravenna as one of its first builds (I always do that with a new religion when close to Scientific Method) and in this case where that city needed culture it is especially worthwhile. Monasteries are a good value source of 2 culture for 60 hammers. My Hindu missionary and Jewish one would follow my stack into Berlin as soon as it was captured. The odds of a missionary increases if you own the city and the extra religions would then immediately produce culture and +2 happiness when it came out of revolt. Try that tactic sometime in one of your games and see if you like it.

 

[uberfish]

Do you have any suggestion of how and when this could have been done? That could go into the final game analysis.

Faster early expansion - 3 cities at 0AD is behind the growth curve and isn't really taking advantage of Charismatic/Stonehenge. You've been playing catchup (very well) from there.

 

[CivSetä]

Faster early expansion - 3 cities at 0AD is behind the growth curve and isn't really taking advantage of Charismatic/Stonehenge. You've been playing catchup (very well) from there.

IMHO three cities was the maximum at the point - the economy was not strong enough to support a growing city. There were not that many good city sites nearby after all.

 

[Yeekim]

Glad to have an update!
And triple hooray for good ol' Monty!
He really saved the day for the Commonwealth, didn't he?

 

[aelf]

Faster early expansion - 3 cities at 0AD is behind the growth curve and isn't really taking advantage of Charismatic/Stonehenge. You've been playing catchup (very well) from there.

IMHO three cities was the maximum at the point - the economy was not strong enough to support a growing city. There were not that many good city sites nearby after all.

Yeah, I remember our economic situation wasn't good enough.

I've played the next round, but I fear some of you might not like the result...

 

[cabert]

Yeah, I remember our economic situation wasn't good enough.

I've played the next round, but I fear some of you might not like the result...

sounds like a diplo win

 

[UncleJJ]

Or did he lose the Space Race

Stop teasing us aelf .... it's agony

Or I'll leave your threads

 

[tbarg86]

DAMN YOU.....I don't know why I even care about these games cause I'm not playing, but I CANT STOP READING!!

Tell us what

but I fear some of you might not like the result...

I think we all need it

 

[aelf]

Or did he lose the Space Race

Stop teasing us aelf .... it's agony

Tell us what

I think we all need it

Well, you guys can simply play a shadow game from the last save and decide for yourself what the outcome might be. Otherwise, hang in there for another couple of hours

 

[aelf]

Hmm... It seems that Photobucket is letting us down. I hope the problem doesn't last long.

 

[AlessioCerci]

damn it. I hope this is finished before i get BTS.

Edit:

Spoiler :

Actually this should[ be easy. I took the save and got a diplo win 1n 1915 (sorry no screenshot), and i am by no means an immortal player I farmed everywhere, nuker russia, and got relations with monty up by +2.

 

[aelf]

Round 11: 1887AD - 1896AD

I thought about it for a while before playing and came to a decision: What the heck, let's go for a diplomatic victory and end this!

To ride on the wave of overseas wartime popularity, I decided to sink a GE's worth of hammers into the UN, and that brought it to near completion in our capital:



Meanwhile, I raised the culture slider, since WW started off quite high already and I figured with a chance at winning by diplomacy we didn't need to rush to get Robotics (Peter didn't have it yet).

And this time the war was a little hotter, with Peter sending a few battleships to terrorise our coast. I quickly queued a few battleships in some of our coastal cities. We also faced invisible pillaging ships - submarines. Destroyers could solve that problem, but getting enough of them out to hunt down all the submarines took time. We still didn't face serious health or food problems, however, as we were able to rebuild the workboats quickly as soon as the pillagers moved away.

We got our next GP on the following turn:



Since we didn't really need him for a trade mission (couldn't send him to the other continent until the war was over, anyway), I used him and the prophet to generate a Golden Age (the GS was used on Ecology later). If we're going to win by diplomatic soon, we might as well get the production bonus now to help keep our seas safe. The commerce boost, meanwhile, would help us get Robotics and the Space Elevator sooner, should they be needed.

The UN was completed a few turns later:



Yes, as you can also see from that screenshot, a few deals were cancelled due to us losing all our seafood. Should've seen that coming. We couldn't get the deals anymore and consequently ran into minor health and happiness problems.

Good news came soon, though, as we got elected as Secretary General



Now, were those votes enough to get us a diplomatic win? Certainly. But would Brennus vote for us? I decided to find out as soon as the first opportunity arose. Hey, why beat around the bush, right?

So I called a vote. The results...



We won! Brennus' votes weren't even necessary, insubstantial as they were.



So, ladies and gentlemen, thus ends the 3rd Immortal Challenge, with old Winston giving his V-Day speech as leader of the free world

The power graph for the whole game:



Wow. See that? Monty and Peter must have been fighting tooth-and-nail, while Isabella was clearly a casualty. We ended up not much weaker than the strongest of them.

GNP graph:



Ho, ho. It might not be as glorious as that of the 1st Immortal Challenge, but we still came out on top, and the Golden Age caused our GNP to shoot up.

Manufactured goods:



Peter's plummeted even further than Monty's, leaving ours unchallenged. With such graphs, I think a space victory wouldn't have been difficult.

Our final score:



The highest score after the domination victory with Roosevelt. Good job, guys

Well, I suppose if I have the time I can go back to the last save and try for a space win just for fun. I might not be able to get BTS immediately, so that is quite likely. Will you guys be interested in that? And I will post a post game analysis soon. Does anyone have anything to contribute to that?

Anyway, I'd like to say it again: Good job, folks! It was a very thrilling game with lots of action and an impossible-looking situation. The success at the end was really made all the sweeter

 

[tboner23]

I would like to see the space race attempt. While diplomatic is a legitimate win for the Challenge, it does seem like a bit of a cop out to guarantee victory, we knew before hand that we should be able to get enough votes to win. Besides, space race was the whole point of starting a war with Peter in the first place, wasn't it? Also, I won't be getting BtS until somebody decides to make a Mac version of it, or I get an Intel Mac and Windows... which won't be happening anytime soon. So let's head for the stars!