The Immortal Challenge 3: The Gathering Storm

[carl corey]

I'd say BW first. If copper than Wheel (end of barb problems) -> Agri -> AH -> Myst.

If no copper, than Hunting -> Archery -> Agri -> AH -> Myst -> Wheel.

I don't like not having either Copper or Horses nearby, so lately even on Monarch I tech to Archery if the strategic resource I'm aiming for isn't in sight. Putting Wheel early in the queue if you have a resource is a must, unless you're lucky and get on a river tile connected to the city.

 

[CivSetä]

the reason that the pig needs to be hooked up quickly is, it save 4-5 turns(estimate figure) for the settler production in epic speed. and 2-3 turns to the second worker production. we MUST act quickly on immortal, so several turns really make difference. trees should be saved for stonehenge if the majority think its worth a try.

Settler can be whipped to save even more turns...

I think that Stonehenge is a good idea, which means that we need also mysticism early. It should be started just after finishing settler just to make sure. If we found copper nearby, then maybe AG-BW-myst is a way to go?

 

[Sjaramei]

Why is everyone so fond of BW so early?

You will get BW in time for the 2nd city to claim whichever resource is closest (horse/copper)

In my opinion it's more important to work those pigs (pigs are 6 food right? thats huge) quick to boost growth/production than getting some early whipping/chopping power which you will get in time anyway.

Save the forests for something else than Stonehenge... it's much better wonders/buildings to spend those hammers on.

 

[carl corey]

Why is everyone so fond of BW so early?

You will get BW in time for the 2nd city to claim whichever resource is closest (horse/copper)

In my opinion it's more important to work those pigs (pigs are 6 food right? thats huge) quick to boost growth/production than getting some early whipping/chopping power which you will get in time anyway.

Save the forests for something else than Stonehenge... it's much better wonders/buildings to spend those hammers on.

BW early? Because of barbs. I've had quite a few starts in which I had no copper, went for horses, had no horses, and by the time I got archery I was half dead. Nowadays I prefer going for early Archery if I have no resource from the first try. It just happens that the first try here is BW. I'm not sure we can get both AH and BW ready in time for the second city. It certainly doesn't work on Normal speed, maybe it does on Epic?!

Also, Stonehenge will give another +1 happiness in all cities. I think that's pretty important, especially on Immortal.

 

[CivSetä]

Sjaramei: I think you can't research agr-AH-BW before you finish settler (assuming worker-warrior-settler)...

 

[carl corey]

By the way, I totally can see the merits of Agri->AH. But if we do go BW and we find no copper, than Hunting -> Archery will also make AH cheaper. I don't WISH for no copper, but there would be a slightly positive side to it.

 

[Sjaramei]

BW early? Because of barbs. I've had quite a few starts in which I had no copper, went for horses, had no horses, and by the time I got archery I was half dead. Nowadays I prefer going for early Archery if I have no resource from the first try. It just happens that the first try here is BW. I'm not sure we can get both AH and BW ready in time for the second city. It certainly doesn't work on Normal speed, maybe it does on Epic?!

Also, Stonehenge will give another +1 happiness in all cities. I think that's pretty important, especially on Immortal.

Sjaramei: I think you can't research agr-AH-BW before you finish settler (assuming worker-warrior-settler)...

When i play i get them both in time. (i play emperor difficulty epic speed, but it might be otherwise on immortal, but i don't think so)
((prereq to AH) - (AH) - (BW) -(The Wheel)) is my common start tech path. If you do mysticism and stuff earlier i could see why you wouldn't get both in time. It might involve working some less productive more commercial squares, but that depends on the start.

You will be building monuments in all cities anyway. Spending the time building a wonder in the capital isn't worth it. (you want it make workers/settlers/troops instead) Only reason i could see for building Stonehenge while growing would be cash.

And i would be surprised if he has no horses/copper nearby. Most likely he will lose then anyway. (getting archery and building archer to defend from barbs is most likely a lost game)

(Simulation of my start)

Spoiler :

I tried to run through a simulation of mine, it works like emperor but i had to whip some warriors for barb defense... they came way too early. Horses nearby helped a lot, would have been harder if i had to chase for copper i think but still doable.

And wow this will be a hard game for aelf, after my chariot rush on Bismarck failed cause of a swordsman got built the last possible turn i quitted. This start is unforgiving. The land is very poor
(i played aggressive though, my 3rd city was placed on the mainland, not "our" peninsula, will be interesting to see how aelf plays this one out.)

 

[EEE_BOY]

i agree with Sjaramei

if u can't finish BW but the settler is ready , u can wait for BW OR if u have horse nearby , go directly to horse!! i also think people underestimate chariot, in warlord , they get 100% attack vs. axeman, which means if barb axe show up, u even don't worry about the odd... such a good barb fending unit!! they are also good for mobile defense and fog busting.

 

[Scaphism]

The monuments from Stonehenge dissapear when you research calendar, and the happiness boost too. To the best of my knowledge if you build each monument individually it stays after calendar and continues to give culture and happiness.

 

[EEE_BOY]

"Settler can be whipped to save even more turns..."

this is a good point, but if u have pig hooked up, the city will regrow back much quicker than working only farmed corn.

people talked about chopping for setter. that is less efficient, remember in warlord, chopping only converts to 20 hammers (30 on epic), which is likely 2 turns of settler production. 100% food converts to production of settler. while u building wonders, u get 50% penalty if hurry wonders. so trees shall be reserved to wonder.

"The monuments from Stonehenge dissapear when you research calendar, and the happiness boost too. To the best of my knowledge if you build each monument individually it stays after calendar and continues to give culture and happiness."

is that true?? well if that's true i vote No to stonehenge. because in the very early era, the quicker we assemble an army, the better result of a rush (either axe rush or chariot rush). stonehenge seems to be diversion of hammers from units, which is not good. Instead, we build monument where we need culture or when we need happiness. later when the city tiles are improved , a monument easily gets built.

 

[oyzar]

the happiness disapear. The happines cap of the capital is 5... you cant realistically grow past that in the early game and hence the pigs would be wasted expect when producing workers or settlers and recovering from heavy whiping. Whipping and chopping makes BW so much more atractive than AH even if you have an animal reasource. Axemen and chariots are about the same for defending against barbs anyways...

 

[ungy]

I think it's pretty clear to go ag-ah-BW. Build work-war-set (or 2 war if that makes the timing better for BW with the settler. Nothing wrong with fog busters.

 

[Scaphism]

Is aelf even interested in trying for an early rush? I suspect, as with most of his games, that it will depend on what the circumstances show him. Paraphrased, his mantra has been "act on the information already known" and not on assumptions.

An early rush needs at least a few things to even be considered:
1) an easily accessible source of copper
2) a nearby neighbor (preferably without a great early UU, but that's a lesser concern)

This is still the second turn of the game. The neighbors and surrounding area are still unknown.

With that in mind, agriculture first still seems like a good move. Once it's discovered (10+ turns later?) a many more tiles will be revealed and we will have potentially met a neighbor. If Bronze Working looks good then, go for it. If not, Animal Husbandry.

The site is ideal for both, which is really beneficial. Early on it can both whip and work mines. All that said, I learn towards AH after Ag. With two +6 food tiles the happiness cap can be reached sooner and settlers/workers will be generated faster. The most important things for the capital to produce early are workers and settlers, and enough warriors to protect them.
Put this way: AH and BW both have longish research times. During that time you want to work the most productive tiles possible. You have the capital, the (irrigated) corn, and then you can choose between the hills and the pigs. Bronze Working doesn't give you additional tiles to work, AH does. The Pigs (from AH) will let you grow faster to work more hills sooner, and in the meantime it's more productive than the hills (+6 instead of +4).

 

[NaZdReG]

I would go BW first... then myst, ,ag, wheel, ah.

chop/whip out a settler and then warrior warrior, stonehenge

looks like a good production captiol

NaZ

 

[oyzar]

NaZdReG wont that start just die to barbs? IF he gets stone somewhere he should get the stonhenge if not it is kidna hard to get it AND survive on this level...

 

[manu-fan]

I would say:

You have enough advice. Just play already!

Cheers.

 

[NaZdReG]

well if there is no nearby copper then yeah. if so city #2 can begin pumping axes for defence.

of cource if we are playing a protectiv civ.. why is nobody arguing towards archery??

prot archers would hold off early barbs without problem.. but we've already had this disucssion before in older EMC's and ALC games. hunting provides no immediate benefit adn hunting+archery would probably take longer to research than just BW and hookup of copper.

so mebbe BW,wheel, ag,ah with city #2 settling copper asap

NaZ

 

[aelf]

Is aelf even interested in trying for an early rush? I suspect, as with most of his games, that it will depend on what the circumstances show him. Paraphrased, his mantra has been "act on the information already known" and not on assumptions.

An early rush needs at least a few things to even be considered:
1) an easily accessible source of copper
2) a nearby neighbor (preferably without a great early UU, but that's a lesser concern)

This is still the second turn of the game. The neighbors and surrounding area are still unknown.

With that in mind, agriculture first still seems like a good move. Once it's discovered (10+ turns later?) a many more tiles will be revealed and we will have potentially met a neighbor. If Bronze Working looks good then, go for it. If not, Animal Husbandry.

You hit the nail on the head there.

Nonetheless, I'm more on the side of those advocating AH first. If we research BW first, our worker would have nothing to do for a long time after farming the corn except chopping/pre-chopping. It seems much more efficient if he could at least build a pasture on the pigs next, which we could start working to reap its benefits earlier.

I would say:

You have enough advice. Just play already!

It's not that I don't want to. I just haven't had the time

 

[Bhruic]

If we research BW first, our worker would have nothing to do for a long time after farming the corn except chopping/pre-chopping.

You don't plan on mining any of those hills? That would certainly give a worker lots to do - you've got lots of hills to work with.

Bh

 

[aelf]

You don't plan on mining any of those hills? That would certainly give a worker lots to do - you've got lots of hills to work with.

The mines can come after the pasture. I think it's still more effective to build the pasture earlier, especially since we can have 1 extra pop before reaching the happiness cap thanks to Charismatic.