The inevitable leaders thread

[GoodSarmatian]

I want to say "don't like emotionally as a Civ leader". I think it was clear because we're talking about choosing leaders for the game, not politics.

It's not even about people "not liking him as a civ leader". Any game that let's you specifically play Hitler would get banned or censored ni germany and since we're a pretty big market for pc games in general and strategy is avery popular genre here Hitler is simply out of the question (except mods of course, I'm sure Hitler will be one of the first things modded into the game).

 

[Dragonflow]

Also, I don't think Hitler did anything to deserve it to be in the game. He wasn't a good leader and his actions didn't give Germany nothing except death and destruction. He might have conquered Europe but he lost it after 3 years.

 

[iceman30]

If they're looking for a leader other than Hitler to associate with Germany during WWII, might I suggest Erwin Rommel? He was obviously a general, not a political leader. But he's well known as a brilliant military leader who did a lot with limited resources. He frequently disobeyed orders from Hitler regarding abuse of POWs and the deportment of Jews (he gave a commando with orders to assassinate him a full military funeral after he was killed). The Allies respected him. He was involved in the plot to kill Hitler.

All in all, I think if his Civilopedia page added a disclaimer about the "accomplishments" of the Nazi regime, both great and horrifying, and then described Rommel as a representative of the "good German", people would accept his inclusion.

At least he would be better than von Papen.

 

[iceman30]

And if, as GoodSarmatian says, the main reason Hitler is banned is to avoid German censorship, Rommel is very highly regarded there (as far as I'm aware, American here). He has a German destroyer named after him.

 

[Dragonflow]

Rommel is a possibility but I don't understand why they should include a German leader for WW2. There are many important figures in German history that deserve a spot in ciV. Firaxis should try to find leaders that were important and had a lasting legacy, a positive one would be good.

 

[The Capo]

I don't think they'd add Rommel either. Most likely there will be one or two different leaders, if even that. If there is only one leader per civ they will, most likely, be the leaders we are already accustomed to. The only way they'd add some of the more ridiculous leaders I've seen here (and there are a great many ridiculous suggestions in this thread I have to say) is if they have more than one leader per civ.

EDIT: Rommel is NOT a possibility, you should get that notion out of your heads.

 

[awesome]

hitler improved the economy of germany after it had to pay all of that tribute from wwi. mussolini modernized italy. sure, these guys are villains and shouldn't be put into the game because of that (stalin probably shouldn't for the same reason, but hey), and their negative accomplishments certainly outweigh their positive ones, but those positives did exist. maybe they can be in civ xv.

 

[Dragonflow]

The Nazis improving German economy is one of many myth. The economy was pretty bad during the early and middle 1920th but it was getting better at the end. The high unemployment disappeared because of the reintroduction of conscription and the establishment of the so called "Workers Army". Also most women were forbidden to work, this way the propaganda could talk about the sinking unemployment. The condition in which workers lived also worsened during the Nazi times. Most of the positiv thing that Nazis did are myth created by the propaganda.

 

[iceman30]

Art Grin, I agree there were more influential leaders in German history. However, I think that the leaders that are chosen should be and have been in the past representative of their civilizations at their most influential. Queen Victoria was not a great leader, but she is representative of an era when England was at its most influential. She was not an economist or military mind, but we gave her traits of Financial and Imperialistic because that was the nature of the British empire during the time. Germany's moment of greatest influence on the rest of the world was during the first and second world wars, and I think Germany needs a warmonger leader to account for this.

I do agree with The Capo that Rommel will most likely not be included, though I think he would make a good choice for any WWII mods. The Capo's general point that leaders should be cut down to 1 per civ, however, seems excessive. Most civilizations have functioned very differently at different stages in their development, and this should be reflected. Most of the suggestions I have seen are not ridiculous.

 

[Dragonflow]

I partly agree with you. I understand that the leader should represent the civilisation and it doesn't necessary have to be a politician. I just don't think that Germany should get someone from the time of WW2. If Germany needs a warmonger and good representative from the 20th century then it should be Emperor Wilhelm II. He was the leader of Germany during the colonial expansion, first economic wonder and WW1. He was also a more or less a good politician( well not good when it came to foreign policy) and he is also more or less well now. He might look similar to Bismarck if they make him wear the Prussian army uniform but if they give him a German WW1 naval uniform he could also function as a WW2 leader( after a name change ofcourse). He was after all for a long time the stereotype German in the eyes of not Germans.

 

[j51]

I want to say "don't like emotionally as a Civ leader". I think it was clear because we're talking about choosing leaders for the game, not politics.

Of course what you were saying is clear, but finding the inclusion of Hitler, Stalin, et. all distasteful is not an issue of politics.

 

[5t0rmm4k3r]

*While on the subject of Germany, I would be interested in seeing Armenius as a leader.

Yes! I have always been disappointed at Germany's consistent lack of ancient leaders and he was always my first choice! Top marks, you read my mind!

*Gilgamesh and Hammurabi are fairly appropriate for Babylon; no changes needed there.

Gilgamesh was a mythical king of Sumer(ia), not Babylon. Although I think Nebuchadnezzar could be a good Babylonian leader.

I don't think think Germany should be merged with the HRE. As was mentioned earlier, while they occupy the same area, they are very different. The HRE was not just German but also partly French, Italian ans Slavic. This is not to mention the fact that it was very rarely a single political entity. I think if it is included it should be separate to Germany, though you could argue against it's inclusion at all (I would much prefer the Franks).

 

[Dragonflow]

The HRE was the predecessor of modern Germany. The full name was "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation" which translates into english as Holy Roman Empire of German Nation. It did occupy territories in Italy and Eastern-Europe, but he emperors were Germans and the bulk of the army was made up of Germans. IMO Holy Roman Emperors can be used as medieval German leader and I'm against including it into the game, it's like having the Peoples Republic of China and Imperial China as separate civs.

 

[Pangur Bán]

The HRE was the predecessor of modern Germany. The full name was "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation" which translates into english as Holy Roman Empire of German Nation. It did occupy territories in Italy and Eastern-Europe, but he emperors were Germans and the bulk of the army was made up of Germans. IMO Holy Roman Emperors can be used as medieval German leader and I'm against including it into the game, it's like having the Peoples Republic of China and Imperial China as separate civs.

Yes, this is correct. Basically, the HRE is just medieval Germany. Having it is even worse than adding "Anglo-Saxon England" (in addition to England ), and is almost like adding the "Kingdom of France" (in addition to France).

There is a history channel documentary about the Charlemagne and the "Holy Roman Empire". This mistakenly calls the empire of Charlemagne the "Holy Roman Empire" (rather than Frankish empire). Because the way this mistake was formulated is so rare, and because of the dates, I believe this was what caused the developers to commit the HRE error.

 

[Pangur Bán]

This is the documentary they probably got it from:

Link to video.
or...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-f_4HiRu4

The documentary should be a lesson to all that tv history is often ... erm ... flawed.

 

[Dragonflow]

This explains why Charlemagne was the HRE leader in BTS. If I remember correctly the term "Holy Roman Empire" was created by Frederic Barbarossa during the 12th century and later the part with "of German Nations" was added. Charlemagne doesn't really fit in there at all.

 

[kivanc]

Well. Most historicians name Charlemagne's empire as Frankish Empire. After him, divided into three. The west transformed into French dynasty. Middle, disbanded soon. The east transformed into the HRE. So basically Charlemagne never ruled HRE. 1of his son/grandsons ruled HRE.

HRE expanded territories fast, lasted for a long era. Then it lost some territories. When the dynasty changed to Habsburgs, they became known as Austria and/or Austria/Hungary interchangably in different ages.

During HRE transformation into Austria, some of the lost territory in north has split into many small german kingdoms. During 19th century, I think, a german conf was founded to include all germans.

So anyway, basically, Charlemagne a frankish king is considered as ancestor of France, Germany and Austria, with different names. Charles, Karl, Charlemagne etc.

Franks are considered 1 of the germanic tribes anyway.

 

[Dragonflow]

He can be a leader for three civilizations at least. He could be a French, German or Frankish leader( if the Franks get added ). I personally would like to see a French medieval leader but I can't really remember one at the moment.

 

[Gedemo]

How do you consider Gauls?

Is it the same for french or not?

If yes: Vercingetorix can be a great leader for france , like Clovis (frank) or Charlemagne (holy)

 

[Dragonflow]

I agree Vecingetorix or Clovis would make nice French leaders.