The inevitable leaders thread

How do you consider Gauls?

Is it the same for french or not?

If yes: Vercingetorix can be a great leader for france , like Clovis (frank) or Charlemagne (holy)
AFAIK, Gaul term is Celtic origin.
In the time of romans, todays France was inhabitated by Celts.
Celts' initial origin includes an area of south germany, east france and switzerland. I mean the ancient Celt inhabited area was there. Later during roman era they moved to further west to France, and later soem of the celts moved even further west to ireland and scotland.

There are theories that some of the Celts moved also to east, not only west.

So I believe Celtic Gaul culture doesn't make it a french civilization just because they lived in today's france. Hoever, I don't know about Vecingetorix or Clovis. Are they Gauls? I mean, are they celts?
Sure, else then germanic roots, french people might have mixed origins from ancient celts and romans, just like english people.
 
Clovis was a Frankish king during the dark ages. He is famous for converting the Frank to Christendom and therefore marked the beginning of France as a Christian nation.
 
What about Khrushchev? He was Ukranian and possibly the best leader CCCP had:D
i am sure stalin would be their pick if each civ had only 1 leader.
he was in the game since civ1.

such as mao, gandhi, genghis, shaka, alex. i am sure all the leaders of civ1 will always be in the game.
 
The developers of CivV want to sell the bigger quantity of games. So, Hitler or Franco won't be included because they're hated in their own countries (the Germans and the Spanish wouldn't buy CivV), while Stalin and Mao will be included because the most of the Russian and all the Chinese who live in China like them.
 
It's pretty much like Iván de España says. Mao and Stalin were in Civ since CivI and they are largely popular in their countries or at least not hated like Hitler, Franco or Mussolini. I just hope that there are multiple leaders this time as well. It just adds more variety to the games. And I also hope the new leaders that will get added are interesting.
 
I would like that the expansions of Civ V were about periods or areas, like CivV: Ancient Times or CivV:Far East. They could include many civilizations and many scenarios. The programmers can do many expansions of Civ V and no more parts of the Civ saga, that is, I don’t want CivVI and CivVII. Besides, I would like less European civilizations and more civilizations of all the world, mainly Africans, that were important in History although we don’t know.

Anyway, my next 18 civilizations and each 3 leaders for the expansions are:

19) Mongolia (CivI-IV)
-Genghis Khan (CivI-IV)
-Kublai Khan (CivIV)
-Ögodei Khan. As sucessor of Genghis, he conquered huge territories in China, Central Asia and Eastern Europe.

20) Assyria. It was an Empire of the area of Syria, Irak, Turkey, Lebanon, Palestine and Israel during the 19th-7th centuries, destroyed by Babylonians and Persians.
-Ashurbanipal, also known as Sardanapalus. He developed the Assyrian art and literature and conquered the Empire of Elam.
-Tiglath-Pileser III. He founded the Neo-Assyrian Empire and conquered Hatti territory, Persian territory, Philistia and Israel.
-Sargon II. He conquered Samaria and Babylon and defeated the armies of Urartu, Elam, Egypt and Philistia.

21) Carthage (CivII-IV)
-Hannibal (CivII-IV)
-Hanno the Great. He conquered territories in Africa, was enemy of the Barcid family, which Hannibal was member of, and so belonged to the pro-Roman faction of the Carthaginian Senate.
-Mago I. He was the King of Carthage and, in his time, this phoenician colony became preeminent in Western Mediterranean economically and politically.

22) Sioux (CivII and more or less CivIV)
-Sitting Bull, also known as Tatanka Iyotanke (CivIII-IV)
-Tecumseh. He leaded a tribal confederacy against the US and helped the Bristish in the War of 1812.
-Crazy Horse, also known as Tasunka Witko. He was leader of the tribal alliance with Sitting Bull and Red Cloud and participated in the Battle of Little Bighorn.

23) Khmer Empire (CivIV)
-Suryavarman II (CivIV)
-Jayavarman II. He was the founder of the Khmer Empire.
-Indravarman I. He was a builder ruler: irrigation systems, shrines, moats, etc.

24) Mali (CivIV)
-Kankan Musa I (CivIV)
-Sundiata Keita. He founded the Mali Empire and conquered the Ghanan Empire.
-Uli I, also known as Ouli or Ali. He conquered Gambia and lands of gold minery between Senegal and Mali.

25) Songhai Empire. It was an Empire of the area of Niger, Nigeria, Mali, Burkina Fasso and Senegal during the 7th-16th centuries destroyed by the armies of Morocco Sultanate, which were leaded by a Muslim Spaniard.
-Askia Muhammad I, also known as Muhammad Toure. He set up a developed bureaucracy and made his Empire strong in trade and economy.
-Sunni Ali Ber. He conquered the most of the territory of Mali.
-Askia Daoud. He expanded the Empire and defeated the Mossi in battles.

26) Turkey (CivIII-IV)
-Suleiman the Magnificent (CivIV)
-Osman I (CivIII)
-Mehmed II (CivIV)

27) Hatti (CivIII)
-Suppiluliuma I. He conquered the Mittani Kingdom and conquered Egyptian cities.
-Mursili II (CivIII)
-Hattusili I. He united all the Hittite Kingdoms in an Empire.

28) Maya Kingdoms (CivIII-IV)
-Pacal II, also known as K’inich J’anaab Pakal (CivIV)
-Ah Mekat Tutul Xiu. He founded the Mayapan Alliance, which joined the Itza, the Tutul Xiu and the Cocom from 10th century to 12th century.
-K’inich Yak K’uk’ Mo’, also known as Green Quetzal Macaw. He was the first King of Copan and the founder of Yax Kuk Mo dinasty, in which time (5th-9th centuries) knowlodge of maths and astronomy, writing and art was developed.

29) Iroquois Confederacy (CivIII)
-Hiawatha (CivIII)
-The Great Peacemaker, also known as Deganawida. He was a prophet and spiritual leader who founded the Iroquois Confederacy.
-Red Jacket, also known as Sagoyewatha. He negotiated the independence of the Six Nations with G. Washington.

30) Celts (CivII-IV)
-Vercingetorix. Member of the Arverni, he united the Gaul peoples to fight Caesar.
-Viriathus. Member of the Celtici, he leaded the Lusitani and the Celtici to resist against the Romans, who were defeated several times, in Hispania (Spain).
-Boudica (CivII&IV)

31) Vikings (CivII-IV)
-Ragnar Lodbrok (CivII-IV)
-Cnut the Great, also known as Canute, Knut or Cnut Sweynsson (CivII)
-Erik the Red, also known as Eric Thorvaldssen. He colonized Groenland.

32) Majapahit. It was an Empire in Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, the Philippines, and East Timor during 13th-16th centuries, destroyed by a Indonesian Sultanate.
-Hayam Wuruk, also known as Rajasanagara. His reign was the golden age of Majapahit because conquered territories and the Javanese culture was developed.
-Raden Wijaya, also known as Kertarajasa Jayawardhana. He founded the Majapahit Kingdom.
-Tribhuwana Wijayatunggadewi. She conquered neighbour kingdoms in a great expansion.

33) Korea (CivIII-IV)
-Wang Kon (CivIII-IV)
-Sejong the Great. He created the Korean alphabet and developed the Korean science and culture making inventions and writing books.
-Taejo, also known as Yi Seong-gye or Yi Dan. He was the first Korean King of the Joseon Dinasty (14th-20th centuries) and established the capital in Seoul.

34) Kongo. It was a Kingdom of the area of R.Congo, D.R.Congo, and Angola during the 14th-19th centuries, destroyed by Belgium, Portugal and France.
-Nzinga Mbemba, also known as Mbemba a Nzinga Ndo Funsu or Afonso I. He converted his Kingdom to Christianism and estableshed the Catholic Church of Kongo in order to create a unique society. He expanded the Kingdom with Portuguese mercenaries.
-Nkuwu Nzinga, also known as Nzinga a Nkuwu or Joâo I. He developed his economical relations with the Portuguese and adopted the Christianism.
-Lukeni Iua Nimi, also known as Ntinu Nimi a Lukeni. He founded the Kingdom of Kongo.

35) Zimbabwe, also known as Great Zimbabwe and, later, Mutapa or Munhumutapa. It was in the area of Zimbabwe and Mozambique during 13th-18th centuries, ruled by the Shona and destroyed by the Portuguese. This is the real civilization whose capital was Zimbabwe, not the Zulus, whose capital was Ulundi in South Africa.
-Matope. He extended the Mutapa Kingdom into Empire conquering lands of other peoples and developed the trade of minerals and ivory.
-Mututa. He conquered Great Zimbabwe and founded the Mutapa Kingdom.
-Rusvingo. He founded the Kingdom of Zimbabwe.

36) Ghana, also known as Wagadu. It was an Empire of the area of Mauritania, Mali and Senegal during the 8th-13th centuries, annexed into the Mali Empire.
-Dinga Cisse, also known as Majan Dyabe Cisse. He founded this Empire in a political centralization.
-Bassi. He resisted the Berber attacks of the Almoravids.
-Tunka Manin. He was defeated by the Almoravids.

My next civilization would be the Zulu Kingdom, not Zululand because this was the name of the Zulu territory under British rule. I don’t choose the Zulu Kingdom in my 36 civilizations because its duration was so short (1818-1897) and it was so small (30,000 km2 around Ulundi). My 3 leaders would be Shaka, Cethswayo, and Dinizulu.
 
maybe. i'm not sure. lenin and stalin are the same politically anyway. maybe that's why i couldn't rememebr which was there in civ2.
The same politically? Maybe at face value. Any deeper and you're going to run into a lot of differences. That said, I like Stalin as a leader in Civ because A. he's the most iconic Soviet leader (except maybe Lenin, but he only ran the country briefly) B. he's the most iconic Cold War leader (and among the key figures in WW2) and C. he represents Russia at the height of their global power/influence. So I don't know why he wouldn't be included except for political reasons.

And on an unrelated note: Thomas Jefferson. Overdue.
 
Viriathus was not a Celt :p As far as it is known, he was a Lusitan, and Lusitans were not Celts ( in spite of being close of it ).

The last investigations about point out that Viriathus belonged to the Celtici tribe, located in Estremadura (Portugal) and Extremadura (Espanha), not the Lusitani, who were proto-Celts. Besides, studies of his name pointed out that his name is Celt. "Viriathus" means "the man who wear the torc". The torc or torque is a big ring which symbolize the authority.

Cristiano Ronaldo is the best football player of the world! :hatsoff:
 
The HRE was the predecessor of modern Germany. The full name was "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation" which translates into english as Holy Roman Empire of German Nation. It did occupy territories in Italy and Eastern-Europe, but he emperors were Germans and the bulk of the army was made up of Germans. IMO Holy Roman Emperors can be used as medieval German leader and I'm against including it into the game, it's like having the Peoples Republic of China and Imperial China as separate civs.

This is true, however whether the Emperors were German or not is irrelevant. For the vast majority of its history, the Holy Roman Emperors had little or no power. Within the Empire, there was separate duchies, principalities and even kingdoms (most acting as virtually independent states, who were supposed to answer to the Emperor but usually didn't)! I wouldn't protest against someone like Barbarossa being a German leader, but probably not anyone from before him (with a couple of exceptions maybe). I agree that the HRE was a terrible choice for a civ though. Perhaps the Franks or even the Bohemians would have been a better choice.

P.S. I really really hope Firaxis doesn't make Vercingetorix a leader for France. I think that would be as stupid as making Pachacuti a leader for Peru! The Gauls were nothing like the French and their is nothing common between them except their location!

P.S.S. would anyone else like to see a Seljuk Empire in Civ 5 (or an expansion more likely)?
 
P.S.S. would anyone else like to see a Seljuk Empire in Civ 5 (or an expansion more likely)?

I'd like to see them too... maybe in like a 3rd expansion or something. Though personally I think I'd prefer them over civs like the Hittites or HRE.
 
The same politically? Maybe at face value. Any deeper and you're going to run into a lot of differences. That said, I like Stalin as a leader in Civ because A. he's the most iconic Soviet leader (except maybe Lenin, but he only ran the country briefly) B. he's the most iconic Cold War leader (and among the key figures in WW2) and C. he represents Russia at the height of their global power/influence. So I don't know why he wouldn't be included except for political reasons.

And on an unrelated note: Thomas Jefferson. Overdue.

i mean, i am sure that the guys opposing picking Stalin as a Russian leader is only opposing because of political reasons. so they would oppose Lenin as well.

About politics;
Spoiler :
Lenin and Stalin are politically in the same camp. Both are socialists. Some argue that they are different politically. No, they aren't. Only the consequences they ruled the country were different. And that brought different solutions. And Lenin was a founder, Stalin was an organizer generally. Lenin couldn't live much because of health problems. So most of socialist changes on industry, agriculture, health, education, etc were applied in Stalin's era. So Stalin had to be hard to apply those changes and especially in a war era. That's why Lenin is seen as a political theorist while Stalin is mostly disliked. But shortly, i highlight that they are totally the same politically.


A Turkish Empire to cover both Seljuks and Ottomans perhaps? Having both in the game is like having both Germany and the Holy Roman Emp--- oh, right. :p
i agree totally. i always defend this idea. no need to increase civ number with civs of same roots. if you want more leaders, just give either multiple leaders and/or add new nations to the game and so that would increase the diversity.
i am turkish and inspite of that i can't find any reason to have seljuks and ottomans seperately.
some more detail about history;
Spoiler :
Turks have founded nearly 15-20 strong empires in history, including seljuks and ottomans. that's why, the presidency flag of Turkey has 15-20 stars founding a circle (i forgot the number, only the big empires were counted, starting with ancient Huns)

so if u want Seljuks in the game, just put a leader into Turks. it could be good for them to be represented. Seljuks were empire that famous Hassan Sabbah had a riot against.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seljuk_Empire
 
AFAIK, Gaul term is Celtic origin.

So I believe Celtic Gaul culture doesn't make it a french civilization just because they lived in today's france. Hoever, I don't know about Vecingetorix or Clovis. Are they Gauls? I mean, are they celts?
Sure, else then germanic roots, french people might have mixed origins from ancient celts and romans, just like english people.

XIX - XXth century: Vercingetorix became a political nationalist symbol used by french politicians. At this time, there was a great rivalry with germany/prussia. German were compared to roman oppressors, and Vercingetorix was the perfect hero.

In deed, he wa a gaul chief that tried to unify gaul tribes against Julius Caesar during Gauls Wars. Caesar won the very weel-known Battle of Alesia, that was a decisive battle in the creation of the Roman Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vercingetorix
 
XIX - XXth century: Vercingetorix became a political nationalist symbol used by french politicians. At this time, there was a great rivalry with germany/prussia. German were compared to roman oppressors, and Vercingetorix was the perfect hero.

In deed, he wa a gaul chief that tried to unify gaul tribes against Julius Caesar during Gauls Wars. Caesar won the very weel-known Battle of Alesia, that was a decisive battle in the creation of the Roman Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vercingetorix
so as i understand from what u say, france claims both franks anc celts as their ancestors.

as i told earlier, some influence from Celtic Gaul culture might be inside the french culture. i also said english and french cultures seem to me like a ferment of german, celt and roman cultures, but seems germanic influence is more dominant, because of frankish kings.

i understand french nationalist movement's approach. as gaul and frank cultures were within today's france, french claim both. i am not surprised with this. similarly, English also have sympathy on Boudica. AFAIK, the british empire did try to claim cultures of ancestors of all its sub-kingdoms. And she is a figure of resistance against romans.

bretons in france, scots, eire, wales, isle of man, etc. some regions are confirmed to be celtic, but we don't know much more on celts. sure, some more influence on today's europeon cultures should be there.

before Turks and Greeks in Anatolia, there were many other cultures, like the Hittite. Turks don't claim them as their ancestors as it is very clear that Turks immigrated into Anatolia later. The hittite is an interest for archeologists and historicians but it is not a nationalist figure in Turkey.
 
Back
Top Bottom