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The inner workings of the Demo screen explained

Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by Robi D, Mar 14, 2006.

  1. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Chieftain

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    I'd expect the power curve to change a bit for Warlords. There are 2 new units trebuchet and trireme and the stable is almost certainly a military building. Also some civs have UBs that are military buildings e.g. Zulu version of the barracks and they might have a different rating.
     
  2. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    Well i finally got Warlords:) And i finally got some free time:D

    The Demographics screen guide is now updated for Warlords Version 2.08.
    All in all very few changes, only the Solider ratings from Buildings and units are different from Vanilla 1.61. The update is in the first post of the thread.

    While there are a few changes to existing buildings and units the majority are for new units and buildings coming into the game with Warlords.
     
  3. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Chieftain

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    I would appreciate an update to this excellent thread for BtS when you find the time Robi :)
     
  4. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    Well a quiet day and my copy of BTS and the update is done for all the patches alothough nothing changed for Vanilla and Warlord (still had to check)

    A few surprises with BTS but no huge changes
     
  5. Tzu Iop

    Tzu Iop Chieftain

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    I think you have to redo the GNP part because since BtS I have huge GNP eventough I haven't build a single cottage. The changelog of 2.13 also says, "GNP graph shows total commerce generated, not only raw commerce".

    It seems to me, that all research, wealth and espionage points added up and the maintenance cost substracted are the sum that makes the GNP.
     
  6. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    It was suppose to be that way, but they made an error in 2.08. In fact the 2.08 graphs had a lot of errors, like the food graph only showing the last 20 turns on the length of the graph in SP and not at all in MP which they seem to have fixed up as well.

    That is what i noticed too, just forgot to change it in the guide:blush:
    I'll fix it up tomorrow:)
     
  7. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    Updated the GNP situation:)

    Tell me if you spot anything else i've missed
     
  8. LDeska

    LDeska LDeska

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    Great work.
    I've found the formula to compute Population field in demography. It's a sum of all cities' population, computed as
    where Size is the size of city (initially 1 etc), Population is the value shown in Demography (summed by cities) and [ ] is a rounding down.

    We have written a simple php script that computes how many cities and of what sizes has opponent, basing on the Population value from demography - link and instructions are below.

    Here is a link to my post about it:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5764462#post5764462
     
  9. Pikkis

    Pikkis Chieftain

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    Thanks for good info! It would be great if you would add Cataphract to your unit list (I guess it gives more than zero soldiers).
     
  10. Pikkis

    Pikkis Chieftain

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    Stealth and Laser are not existing techs, they came with BTS.
     
  11. Sam_Yeager

    Sam_Yeager Another Original Geezer

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    Just a minor point but the patch for vanilla was 1.74 rather than the 1.73 you state.
     
  12. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    Nice spotting. No one noticed i didn't put in Janissaries for warlords. The Cataphract is 8000.

    Could sworn they were... at the time:crazyeye:

    So it is.

    I'll make the corrections
     
  13. Pikkis

    Pikkis Chieftain

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    Isn't correct now either. Composites isn't new tech, it's been here since Vanilla. :)

    Thanks for info!
     
  14. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    The dangers of cut and paste:)
     
  15. ChrisShaffer

    ChrisShaffer Board gamer

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    When it says I am third, how are ties broken? For example, if I am third in soldiers, am Mongolian, and I have 3,000 soldiers, is it possible for me to figure out which nations with 3,000 soldiers will get the tie breaker and be second and which nations with 3,000 would lose the tiebreaker and be fourth?
     
  16. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Chieftain

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    I don't think ties are broken. Everyone with the same number would be 3rd.
     
  17. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    Yes, the GNP number and graph in BTS are calculated as gold + beakers + espionage + culture - expenses. (Gold includes foreign income/outgo, and beakers includes tech cost modifications for devaluation and optional prerequisites.) Read on for the technical detail.

    In vanilla and Warlords, the GNP graph is calculated as commerce minus expenses. This can be extremely misleading, since it doesn't factor in multiplier buildings or specialists or shrines or many other factors. I wrote up a detailed discussion, which became the foundation for changing the behavior in BTS.

    In BTS, it's calculated as follows, in CvPlayer.cpp::calculateTotalCommerce()

    Code:
    	int iTotalCommerce = calculateBaseNetGold() + calculateBaseNetResearch();
    
    	for (int i = 0; i < NUM_COMMERCE_TYPES; ++i)
    	{
    		if (COMMERCE_GOLD != i && COMMERCE_RESEARCH != i)
    		{
    			iTotalCommerce += getCommerceRate((CommerceTypes)i);
    		}
    	}
    
    calculateBaseNetGold() returns all gold production, plus foreign trade income or minus outgo, minus expenses including inflation. calculateBaseNetResearch() returns beaker production times any cost modifiers for devaluation and optional prerequisites. The NUM_COMMERCE_TYPES loop then includes culture and espionage production. The commerce types are defined in CvEnums.h as gold, research, culture, and espionage, of which the first two are excluded from that loop. (Theoretically, more could be modded in.)

    So the GNP number and graph can still be slightly misleading as an indicator of economic power, because espionage and culture are included but have no real economic value. This also means that focusing on culture production will tend to give the most impact to the GNP number: culture has the most available multipliers, and artists produce the most units of any specialist.
     
  18. Drolyt

    Drolyt Chieftain

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    The way they calculate land area doesn't seem to make much sense. Your first city, with it's full fat cross, apparently covers twenty one thousand square kilometers, which seems large, but even on a huge map you can never reach reasonable size for a historic empire. The roman empire under Trajan reached 5.9 million square km, but that would mean some six thousand tiles or a square map measuring at least 80x80, assuming no water. Then try the British Empire after WWI which was 36.6 million square km, you should be able to reach this on a huge map. Also the population. 10 million is impressive in Civ4, but the Roman Empire had some sixty million in the first century, and modern China has 1 billion. Is there any way to mod this so that it makes more sense? This might not be the right thread to ask but it is a guide to demographics, so thanks in advance for any replies.
     
  19. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    Well, Drolyt, pretty much the entire game of Civ isn't nearly up to historical scales, even on huge maps. The real world has 170 independent nations, plus countless others that have been "eliminated". Imagine that diplomacy screen! :) In similar veins, the area of Mesopotamia has had dozens of rulers in real life, but a Civ city might change hands about four times at most. And real armies have millions of soldiers, not twenty musketmen. Civ doesn't try to replicate reality; it scales it down for practical reasons.

    For modding the numbers, the place to look is Assets\Python\Screens\CvInfoScreen.py. The demographics screen is defined under a big heading #### DEMOGRAPHICS ####. For example, you could change the following line to a bigger number to make each tile represent more than 1000 square km.

    iLandArea = pPlayer.getTotalLand() * 1000
     
  20. Drolyt

    Drolyt Chieftain

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    First off thanks for the reply. Well I do see your point, I still think it spoils the fun if on a huge map you can never match the Roman Empire much less a colonial one. In the Earth 1000 AD scenario in vanilla it is very easy to make huge empires spanning multiple continents that show up small on the demographics screen. Also I always assumed that the units represented something like an army division, maybe a praetorian is a Roman legion or something, just like how in an rts a few little guys represent a whole army. I type too much. Anyways does the .py ending mean it's a python file? The line looks something like a script, but I've never done Python (I know C++, C#, Javascript, HTML, etc., but not Python unfortunately if I plan to mod I'm going to have to learn), so anyway my question is I'm assuming that pPlayer.getTotalLand() calls the total number of tiles and then the * 1000 multiplies it by one thousand, so can I use a different formula so that it is not a simple multiplication? That might seem counter intuitive but I might try something that while make it smaller when you only have a couple cities so you don't start with a giant city and also don't end with a tiny empire. Or I might scrap that idea. Anyway thanks for the info. I'm going to have to determine what multiplier would be realistic, I think if I find out that dimensions of the Earth map and compare that to the size of the Earth I can find a good estimate.
     

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