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The inner workings of the Demo screen explained

Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by Robi D, Mar 14, 2006.

  1. adrianj

    adrianj Chieftain

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    I've seen some recent action on this thread, so I figure this isn't technically an uncalled for bump.
    Great article by the way Robi D and all the others who contributed. The analysis of the power graph is particularly interesting.
    Does anyone know if any of this information has changed with the more recent patches, ie, BTS 3.17?
     
  2. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Warriors are indeed 2K as you've discovered. Any other changes would be very nice to know...
     
  3. ShannonCT

    ShannonCT Chieftain

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    The 3.17 patch for BtS has changed most of the soldier values for units. Here's the new complete list:

    2000 soldiers - explorer, quecha, warrior, galley
    3000 soldiers - archer, trireme, caravel, carrack
    4000 soldiers - spearman, impi, holkan, skirmisher, bowman, chariot, immortal, war chariot, galleon, airship
    5000 soldiers - catapult, hwacha
    6000 soldiers - swordsman, jaguar, gallic warrior, axeman, dog soldier, phalanx, vulture, pikeman, landsknecht, longbow, horse archer, numidian cavalry, keshik, east indiaman, privateer, guided missle
    7000 soldiers - crossbow, chokonu
    8000 soldiers - praetorian, war elephant, ballista elephant, trebuchet, frigate
    9000 soldiers - maceman, samurai, musketman, musketeer, janissary, oromo warrior
    10000 soldiers - berserker, knight, camel archer, ship of the line
    12000 soldiers - grenadier, cataphract, cuirassier, conquistador, cannon, ironclad, fighter
    14000 soldiers - rifleman, redcoat, anti-tank infantry, machine gun, missle cruiser
    15000 soldiers - cavalry, cossack
    16000 soldiers - transport, carrier, bomber
    18000 soldiers - SAM infantry, artillery
    20000 soldiers - infantry, stealth bomber
    22000 soldiers - mobile SAM
    24000 soldiers - jet fighter
    26000 soldiers - gunship, mobile artillery
    28000 soldiers - marine, navy SEAL, submarine
    30000 soldiers - paratrooper, tank, panzer, destroyer, stealth destroyer, attack submarine, tactical nuke
    32000 soldiers - mech infantry
    40000 soldiers - modern armor, battleship, ICBM


    Soldier values for techs and city buildings did not change. With most units getting a boost, the power graph is now more heavily weighted toward units.
     
  4. Sam_Yeager

    Sam_Yeager Another Original Geezer

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    Thanks for posting the updated values. :goodjob:
     
  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Also worth noting that naval power is far more significant now than it used to be. A battleship is now equal to a modern armor! It's around a LOT earlier!

    Looks a lot more STR based now.
     
  6. DanF5771

    DanF5771 Chieftain

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    But something went wrong with the Missile Cruisers, they were certainly ment to give 40000 soldiers too (like a Battleship) and not those lousy 14000 like an Anti-Tank Inf they give now.
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    :eek:. I hope he just put them there by mistake!
     
  8. DanF5771

    DanF5771 Chieftain

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    Nope it's in the official CIV4UnitInfos.xml:
    <iPower>14</iPower>
    But everybody can easily change this.
     
  9. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I always have a slight issue with changing the XMLs, even for simple matters that are clearly wrong...it makes it feel like I'm playing a different game from everyone else then.

    I should really just get over it, giving barb animals (and doing something about the galleys) an inability to kill units with str, fixing power rating of missile cruisers, removing global warming/nuclear reactor meltdowns (which are ridiculous), and removing early game screw-you events such as massive repeated slave revolts and the *not* fixed barbarian uprisings (teching archery is more dangerous than not teching it?!).

    Maybe even fixing that favorite civic BS that for some unknown reason Solver thinks is fine, where Sury won't adopt free market because organized religion is his favorite civic...

    But somehow, it still bothers me to do it. Maybe I'm not rational but still...
     
  10. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    More importantly changing the xml makes you look like a cheater in MP and prevents you from playing hof / gtom games.
     
  11. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    It has been a long time coming but i finally got around to updating for the BtS 3.17 patch.

    There is only a couple of areas effected. The first one is a minor change to how imports and exorts are expressed and ranked. The second is a big one, a near complete overhaul of the soldier points units are give.

    While i don't know the exact reasons for it, i assume its to make the figure based more on actual units, especially in the early stages, then technologies and buildings, which have not had their values changed.

    All the early land units went up, but melee units had the biggest jump. The midgame land units only went up slightly as did the more modern land units although some did go down, particularly siege untis like mobile artillary.

    Air units stayed the same except fighter went slightly down and jet fighter nearly doubled in soldier value

    While the early naval units were untouched, midgame units went slightly up. But by far the biggest changes were to the modern naval units which just about tripled in value.

    This brings me to the missle criuser which was the most powerful naval unit according to soldier value at 14k. Battleships were 12k, destroyers 10k, subs 8k. Battleships went up to 40k, destroyers 30k and subs 28k while missle criusers stayed at 14k. For my mind this is clearly an oversight on the developers part because they should be around 40k.
     
  12. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Nice update, now if you could update it here as well people who are looking for the info will not get it wrong. http://www.civfanatics.com/node/89/edit Thanks so much for making this, while it isn't that hard to find this info, having it all in one place is very useful.
     
  13. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    Done but a mod will have to make the new revisions current.
     
  14. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Chieftain

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    Great revision.

    This last part sounds like something that could/should be mentioned to the developers of the unofficial patch. :)
     
  15. Tephros

    Tephros Caffeine Junkie

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    Promos need to be factored in, IMO. Something like +10% power per unit per promo used or available. e.g. A combat III knight would be 13,000, while a combat I knight would be 11,000.

    Also I don't know why bunkers and bomb shelters do nothing for power while walls do.
     
  16. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    There isn't really a way to reflect promotions in the power graph and i think it would be seriously misleading anyways...

    Bunkers and bomb shelters should certainly give power however...
     
  17. Tephros

    Tephros Caffeine Junkie

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    I'm not sure how it'd be more misleading than not taking them into account. My well promoted stacks can often defeat poorly promoted stacks twice their size with few casualties. It'd be a direct conversion for combat promotions. The shock/pinch/cover type promos reduce the opponents strength by 25%, so long as it's the correct unit, so it'd be better than 10% for defense but worse for offense, making 10% a good approximation. It'd be misleading when the AI uses a bunch of stupid promos like mobility and sentry, but that'd not a big factor. Even with flankers, I'd much rather see a stack of unpromoted or combat I horse archers than flanking II horse archers.

    More importantly it would help balance the game by giving protective leaders more deterrence, as they start with extra promos.

    Note that the inherent bonuses of units is accounted for right now to some extent. Dog soldiers are only 4 base, yet are rated the same as other axes. Macemen are not 8, but 9, while praets are 8.

    Quite frankly it would work against me if the game took promos into account. I love it when the AI thinks its stronger than me but most of my units have two more promos than theirs due to settled great generals. When they declare war on me and then get their ass handed to them I avoid diplomatic penalties. For that matter, a settled great general should be worth half as much as west point.
     
  18. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Experience is sorta taken into consideration through barracks/stables/militarya cademy etc. However I agree that it far from reflect the whole picture like experience from combat and GG's...

    The AI doesn't take power too much into account when making their decisions though so it doesn't matter all that much..
     
  19. Tephros

    Tephros Caffeine Junkie

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    Actually that's not true. All AI will not declare war on you if your power ratio is high enough. Generally their power has to be greater than yours for them to declare, but sometimes you have to exceed 1.3 (sitting bull, monty) for adjacent civs. It's somewhat complex and there are various kinds of war with different multipliers.

    It is true that diplomacy matters too, but that also depends on the leader. Frederick, Saladin, and Charlemagne will not declare at pleased, but Victoria, Willem, Gilgamesh, Napolean, etc. will.
     
  20. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Chieftain

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    The list of BtS power-affecting buildings is missing Castles. I believe they have a value of 2000 soldiers.
     

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