The Language Thread

[Gori the Grey]

The word discourse (n.) would seem to have changed it's pattern of accentuation between Shakespeare's time and ours.

We now tend to say DIScourse. But I found it in a place in the meter in Richard III where it should be disCOURSE. So I looked it up in an online concordance and it always appears in such slots.

Kind of a language "Just Sayin'" (And hoping to keep the language thread alive).

 

[Arwon]

I just want to say, a propos of nothing at all, that it is unidiomatic to use the formulation "X is the only chance of Y," where X = some physical object.

For example, one should not say "The Earth is the only chance for humanity's survival," but rather "The Earth provides the only chance for humanity's survival."

The reason is simple: chances are something that emerge or develop or arise in the course of time, whereas physical objects simply persist through time.

The formulation you dislike doesn't appear to hamper meaning at all.

 

[Takhisis]

There is a general trend in English to move the stress forward one syllable. DisCOURSE would be the original pronunciation from French, provided it was borrowed late enough, when French shifted the stress to the last (pronounced) syllable in every word as a rule, or that English-speakers hypercorrected even if it was borrowed earlier.

Eventually, for this particular case, you have to go back to the word ‘cursus/cvrsvs’ in which the first sylllable (cur) is the stressed one.

 

[Gori the Grey]

The formulation you dislike doesn't appear to hamper meaning at all.

Remember that bit from Orwell's "Politics and the English Language":

It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts.

Not bothering to draw a distinction between things that persist through time and those that arise in the course of time is a slovenliness in usage that makes it (very incrementally, I acknowledge) easier for us to have foolish thoughts. I'll give you an example from a guy who relies on slovenly thinking in his followers and that turns on the word "is" (though not on chances) once I bring it back to mind.

 

[Takhisis]

If it's the particular political shyster I have in mind then he'd better learn Slovenian. It's a lovely language and one of the few languages in Europe that retain a working dual number.

But let's not get that individual here unless it's very specifically for linguistics. He has enough of a presence in the CFC-OT already.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Well, all right, but the shyster you're correctly guessing is the one who is presently most seriously degrading our polity, and not least through his degradation of the English language.

 

[Arwon]

Not bothering to draw a distinction between things that persist through time and those that arise in the course of time

I don't think that's what is happening here. The copula isn't that narrow, in English it covers both essence and state, unlike say the estar v ser distinction in Spanish.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The word discourse (n.) would seem to have changed it's pattern of accentuation between Shakespeare's time and ours.

We now tend to say DIScourse. But I found it in a place in the meter in Richard III where it should be disCOURSE. So I looked it up in an online concordance and it always appears in such slots.

Kind of a language "Just Sayin'" (And hoping to keep the language thread alive).

Do you have a link to the line to which you're referring?

 

[Gori the Grey]

It's 5.3.99. And ample interchange of sweet discourse.

You can search the word on Open Source Shakespeare to see all of its appearances. One memorable instance where it falls in that same spot in the meter (unstressed stressed) is Hamlet's "O god a beast that wants discourse of reason / Would have mourned longer"

@tak, what you say may well be true, but another factoid I learned long ago is that only ~14 words that appear in the 10,000+ lines of Milton's Paradise Lost have changed their pattern of accentuation in the 350 years since that poem. So disCOURSE remains something of a curiosity.

 

[Takhisis]

Yes, but Shakespeare wrote right at the end of what is now called Middle English. That was, for example, the time when the g in words ending in ing stopped being pronounced. Shakespeare's works remain quite legible after all this time anyway.

 

[sophie]

cvrsvs

It really is so very very painful when you do this.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Just be thankful he doesn't try to write in cvrsive

 

[sophie]

Just be thankful he doesn't try to write in cvrsive

The problem is he is trying to be pedantic, but in so doing he is wrong.

 

[Takhisis]

detector sarcasmi tvvm non fvnctionant

 

[Borachio]

. That was, for example, the time when the g in words ending in ing stopped being pronounced. .

For all I know, you may be right. But in that case when did people start pronouncing the g again?

As far as I know, only the most chinless of the chinless wonders neglect to pronounce those gs these days.

 

[Takhisis]

That's a further development.

Imagine pronouncing the ng in song as people do in England (i.e. /ŋ/, a velar nasal) and then adding a /g/ (voiced velar plosive). That was the pronounciation back then. In some places, (especially the US) the n is pronounced as an alveolar nasal (/n/).

 

[sophie]

You can actually still hear the sound in some dialects, for example the valley girl accent - "Why were you running-guh?"

 

[Takhisis]

Wow, that's interesting. I know that in Españish some of the h's are still pronounced in relatively obscure dialects.

 

[Mise]

In Birmingham accents you can hear the "g". In fact, the very word "Birmingham" when said by people from Birmingham contains a pronounced "g" (and a dropped "h"). "Birming-gum".

Not sure where Borachio is from but it's certainly not something that is common to all British accents. Doesn't feature in Welsh, RP or Cockney/Thames Estuary accents, which are the ones I'm most exposed to. Borachio might be talking about it being common to drop the "g" entirely, and pronounce it as an "n". E.g. runnin', jumpin', flyin', etc. That's obviously quite common across many British accents, especially in lower socioeconomic groups.

 

[Borachio]

. runnin', jumpin', flyin', etc. That's obviously quite common across many British accents, especially in lower socioeconomic groups.

Not to my ear, it isn't. Runnin', huntin' and fishin' are most definitely upper upper class markers, imo.

That's not to say I've never heard a working class person shorten fishing to fishin, of course.

But that's only if they're talking very informally to a bunch of friends.

And in the end, nearly all words will be fore-shortened in those circumstances.