The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial

[The Rook]

@shyuhe
I'm happy with 1W of gold too.

 

[obsolete]

-note- I'm pretty sure the gold city river system is different to the capital river system, we'd need to road the connecting land tile betweem them?

River-Side tiles don't need roads. They should be auto-matically connected if inside culture.

 

[bestsss]

obsolete is correct on the riverside tiles.

 

[Stochastic]

Lurker's comment:

As a prince player just halfway through my first monarch game, I'm finding the level of detailed discussion in this thread fascinating! Really enjoying this SG!

 

[Dirk1302]

Obs tile also taking cows is the best spot but it takes far too long for me to build the monument and pop borders. 1W is a fine tile to put the city and would probably me my choice. But if the Monty team declares on us we'll be very sorry that we didn't build the city on the hill. Consensus is probably that the game's lost anyway in that case?

 

[obsolete]

Using the cows you can whip the obelisk almost right away...

 

[PaulisKhan]

Hmm, I never knew that abou the river systems. I always thought the two tiles had to be connected by the same river.

 

[Dirk1302]

Using cows it's still 16 turns until border pop. That's a lot early game.

 

[PaulisKhan]

It's also 1 pop that we cold whip into something else.

However, I'm becomming reluctant to play a strategy that is a self acknowledged admission of defeat if we get declared war on.

Maybe we should be settling that city on the hill to the east of the gold.
It's likely that Monte/Ragnar will go for churchill/willem, but is that likelihood enough to justify the risk with our city placement.
If we place the city on the hill is there any chance we could hold out long enough to buy peace in the event of an actual war dec.
We almost certainly will get declared on by Joao and Toku.

 

[obsolete]

Using cows it's still 16 turns until border pop. That's a lot early game.

We can cut this down to just 9. The forested hill east of capital has to be mined anyway. We can pre-chop or pre-mine this, and get 20 hammers as soon as we are ready to plant down our city. Also note my city location actually is quicker for the units to reach so we save a turn there as well. We can also pre-chop the forest north of that hill, since it doesn't affect our capital health in any way. Thus, 40 hammers the turn we found our city.. over-flow goes into the the archer which will be the next few following units on that que.

So in the end, our city is off an running far more optimal than the 1W of gold.

The Aux. city can instantly keep working the mined hill near our capital, while we improve the cows. As soon as our border pops we mine the gold and we have a very decent Auxiliary city with 2 floodplains ONTOP of the cows, that can still be used and still maintains levee & trade-routes.

I'm not sure sacrificing so much power of that city because we don't want to waste 9 turns of a gold hill is the way we should be thinking? How on earth is 1W going to even grow when working the gold anyway? It simply CANT! And it has no food there.

1W will cause you to be stuck working a lousy FloodPlain while... what???? You can't even work the Gold anyway while doing so. ARghhhh. And by the time you finally get up to the first pop growth what then? Are you going to FINALLY work the gold-hill, while only having +1 f go into a non-granary city?

This does not compute!

 

[Dirk1302]

That's 11 turns if i counted correctly, settle, queue monument and chop same turn. Next turn it's ready and begins to pump culture. It is a good spot so maybe we should indeed go this way. Else we'd have to put up a second city to fetch those cows or lose them. If we fetch cow/gold we can concentrate on the west subsequently where we would like to get the copper amongst other things.

There is no certainty Monty_team will declare on Willem_team, Willem_team is angry with Monty_team but Monty_team didn't reach a decision as of yet. So it's still a bit risky but i think i like it better then 1W of gold which is neither safe nor a particular good spot. Due to religion probably Willem_team will be the target though.

 

[shyuhe]

With 1W, I think the play would be settle and work the FP while chopping a monument and irrigating a FP. At size 2, work the gold with +2 food while irrigating a second FP. Once two FP are irrigated, swap to the farms to grow to size 3 before going back to the gold. I think it's something like 7 turns to grow on an unimproved FP? In which case it may be better to mine the gold first in anticipation of the growth.

Both city sites are equal distance from the capital but 2S has better long-term tiles (more green). So I'm not entirely opposed to 2S. If we pre-mine the hill near Delhi, it's 4 turns for the monument, 14 to pop. To get the settler in place, it's 4 turns of build + 2 turns of movement + turn on settling, so we can time the two chops to finish on turn 0 of settling and turn 2 of settling as an alternative (we'd have to chop the northern forest first). Will Delhi's border cover that tile by then though?

 

[obsolete]

With 1W, I think the play would be settle and work the FP while chopping a monument and irrigating a FP.

Well that's just Genius. It takes 8 frieken turns just to get a LOUSY +1f improvement on a FP.. while it takes only 4 turns to get an awsome +1F+2H on the currenlty 3F cow tile.

Not to mention, as soon as the first barb pillages that FP, we get to do the whole 8-turns for +1 lousy Food ALL OVER AGAIN!

 

[The Rook]

My primary concern with the cow/gold site is that Monty could potentially put a city right next to the gold, stealing the tile, creating border pressure and keeping the north open for his further expansion. I think if we plan on taking cow/gold we need to be ready to settle further north too to prevent this possibility. Whether we settle the cow/gold or not, we should still get the cow if we take obsolete's second proposed city site.

There is no certainty Monty_team will declare on Willem_team, Willem_team is angry with Monty_team but Monty_team didn't reach a decision as of yet. So it's still a bit risky but i think i like it better then 1W of gold which is neither safe nor a particular good spot. Due to religion probably Willem_team will be the target though.

That's true, but I think it's difficult to conceive how Willem/Churchill could be angry with Monty/Ragnar presumably due to religion/peaceweight, without the reverse also being true, especially when Monty and Ragnar both have a -1 base attitude. I'm not optimistic, but I think our biggest threats are likely Toku/Joao. We just seem a very natural target for them. If Monty/Ragnar attack too, well...

 

[Duckweed]

We don't need monument in the 2nd city 1W of the gold, let it build archers to aid expansion. I think Monty is going to send missionary soon. It should work on FP at size 1 and worker should improve and connect the gold 1st before farm the FP. 1 more citizen in capital is important. 2S site also has less blocking value.

 

[obsolete]

My primary concern with the cow/gold site is that Monty could potentially put a city right next to the gold, stealing the tile, creating border pressure and keeping the north open for his further expansion.

Worst case scenario he does this, we will at least have less barb problems there then... and have quicker trade-routes with the team, speeding up our tech. We'll also be able to then re-focus that city on instead building the S-Paya (he wont be able to take the gold right away). This wonder culture should hold the gold tile in our power, not to mention unlock many other things. We may even flip Monte's city, I do that a lot.

 

[shyuhe]

Monty et al. have sailing already. We're -4 in imports/exports right now since it's one sided

So where do people stand on city #2? It seems we're fairly split right now. I think the gold is far enough away that we can build a 4th city to finish off that side before Monty will encroach our borders.

 

[Duckweed]

We can cut this down to just 9. The forested hill east of capital has to be mined anyway. We can pre-chop or pre-mine this, and get 20 hammers as soon as we are ready to plant down our city. Also note my city location actually is quicker for the units to reach so we save a turn there as well. We can also pre-chop the forest north of that hill, since it doesn't affect our capital health in any way. Thus, 40 hammers the turn we found our city.. over-flow goes into the the archer which will be the next few following units on that que.

So in the end, our city is off an running far more optimal than the 1W of gold.

This argument is not right, settler can be out next turn, you're not ready to prechop any forest, the drawback of delaying the connection of gold is double -- 1 less citizen in capital and commerce loss from gold. 2 more hammers from cow won't compensate the loss, moreover, 1w of the gold don't need monument as I mentioned. Also, cow is shared with the southern spot you proposed, which decrease the value of one city or another.

 

[bestsss]

my 1st thought was to settle just in the same spot obsolete proposes but I ruled it out (to myself) since the city would have zero blocking value.

Talking about 1W: which means we need monument if we dont get religion soon. Also because of the barb city and our brave warrior on top of the hill no many barbs can be spawned.

We are 7 turns away from the next border pop of the capital, thus cows cannot be improved before that.
---
As for the approaching barb warrior. Upgrade the archer to combat 1 and heal him in place. The barb is likely to attempt to pillage the pasture (at least it looks so to me).

 

[Dirk1302]

I need to take a closer look at the whole thing, we only have 1 worker right so prechopping 2 forests isn't going to happen indeed. Then it is even more than 16 turns as we don't have cow in first ring as well. You'll work cow before gold so it's > 20 turns delay on gold, agree with Duckweed on this. Is it worth it to delay gold for so long? probably not. A missionary from Monty won't help us much i'm afraid since Ragnar will hate us if we choose Monty's reli.