The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial

[Dirk1302]

I suppose that if you whip the settler this turn and see more barbs coming the following turn, you could react by putting overflow into an archer, otherwise worker. One advantage of putting overflow into an archer is you might avoid the wrath of obsolete if barbs do give us the run around.

An important point that shouldn't be underestimated .

 

[Duckweed]

Sound like there're many issues in this set. Here are the final opinion from everyone if I read right.

Obs -- 2S of the gold

I'd whip the settler now and let the overflow go to the 3rd archer, at size 4 we can produce the 2nd worker.

2nd city site is still my 1st impression -- 1W of the gold, claim the gold in the 1st ring is very important since it also let the capital hire 1 more citizen beside its huge boost of early commerce.
Regarding the tech path, wheel next for sure to connect the gold, pottery and Writing for cottages in the 3rd city and getting our 1st GS. Foreign trade route through sailing is nice to have, but it only gives us 1 more commerce per city, the benefit is no match to earlier GS.

We don't need monument in the 2nd city 1W of the gold, let it build archers to aid expansion. I think Monty is going to send missionary soon. It should work on FP at size 1 and worker should improve and connect the gold 1st before farm the FP.

On defence:
Looked at the save. How about switching production to archer? If a plains forest is worked for 1 turn it could be built in 3. The turn the archer completes, Delhi should grow into unhappiness. Revolt to slavery and whip settler for 2 pop the same turn. Then depending on the circumstance the overflow could go into another archer or a worker. If the warrior threatens the pasture next turn, promote the archer to combat 1, and defend it. Also send the warrior down from the forested hill to the plains forest, ready to mop up the barb warrior just in case he defeats the archer. The barb may also attack our forest warrior instead (probably better). Alternatively, if the barb heads straight for Delhi we will at least have another archer built the turn the barb can attack.

On settling:
If we are serious about getting the gold, I think we should settle it inside the inner culture ring. Monty is close, and I wouldn't want him to get any ideas about stealing it. If we settle 1W of the gold we would still be on the river (unpillagable roads as obsolete mentions). We'd miss the cow, but after 1 border pop we would cut off Monty from our northern territory. I also think there could be merit to Dirk's thought of settling 1E of gold on desert hill, sacrifices the river, but superior defensively, would also cut off the north after 1 border pop. Though as Duckweed says, an early dow from Monty would probably be futile anyway. I prefer the look of obsolete's proposed southern site on a plains hill. Also, I think a city near the copper should rank as a priority soon, it's a great location, and axes will help in the likely event of a dow from Toku/Joao, and may even catch us a barb city.

On tech:
Like Duckweed, I'd be inclined to go for wheel next, regardless of rivers as substitute roads. It leads us to granaries, connected happy resources, potential foreign trade routes, faster movement, libraries and pretty much everything else.

my 1st thought was to settle just in the same spot obsolete proposes but I ruled it out (to myself) since the city would have zero blocking value.

Talking about 1W: which means we need monument if we dont get religion soon. Also because of the barb city and our brave warrior on top of the hill no many barbs can be spawned.

We are 7 turns away from the next border pop of the capital, thus cows cannot be improved before that.
---
As for the approaching barb warrior. Upgrade the archer to combat 1 and heal him in place. The barb is likely to attempt to pillage the pasture (at least it looks so to me).

Looked at the save, agree with whipping the settler but wait one turn, that'll convert 6F extra into 6H in overflow, we can use these hammers right now. In the end i'd settle 1w of Gold. Let the worker improve the gold while growing on an unimproved fp. Then improve an fp. We need a second worker soon before the third settler i think.

I'm not so sure of my early recommendation anymore. We don't have so much food that it'll go to waste. In the deity doctorate game waiting as long as possible for the 2 pop whip was best with the enormous amount of food surplus and no super tiles to get up asap, happy with every hammer i could get out of one food there. In this case the food situation is not so clear cut. Moreover whipping now gets gold online one turn earlier which is a big plus. So i think whip immediately as we don't need the hammers that bad these turns.

It's also 1 pop that we cold whip into something else.

However, I'm becomming reluctant to play a strategy that is a self acknowledged admission of defeat if we get declared war on.

Maybe we should be settling that city on the hill to the east of the gold.
It's likely that Monte/Ragnar will go for churchill/willem, but is that likelihood enough to justify the risk with our city placement.
If we place the city on the hill is there any chance we could hold out long enough to buy peace in the event of an actual war dec.
We almost certainly will get declared on by Joao and Toku.

So here's a plan for settling 1W:

IT: Worker farms, build settler one more turn, move western archer NE western warrior heads west towards the forest near the copper to spawn bust.

T(1): Revolt to slavery, whip settler. Worker continues farming, hope barb doesn't go towards the mine. Delhi should be at 15/26 at size 3, working sheep + 2 FP (9 food) after the whip.

T(2): Settler heads towards 1W of gold, worker continues farming. Delhi starts a worker to dump the overflow of 19 hammers.

T(3): Move settler, move worker onto gold. Delhi switches to an archer to grow to size 4.

T(4): Found Bombay, mine gold while working FP. Bombay starts on an archer. Delhi grows to size 4 (7/28) but continues working food tiles (2 irrigated FP + 1 unirrigated FP + sheep for 16 food) while building an archer.

So it looks like consensus of the 2nd city goes to 1W of the gold,

new city build archer -- 2 vote from Shyuhe and me -- others?

Whip the settler this turn -- 3 votes from Dirk, Bestsss and me.
next turn -- 2 vote from Shyuhe and The Rook ?
others?

the overflow goes to archer -- 2 votes from Bestsss and me (I'd like to fogbust the western land sooner than later) Edit: Dirk seems to change his opinion to prefer archer?
worker -- 1 vote from Dirk
depend on the warrior move -- 1 vote from The Rook
Obs seemed to prefer archer, but sometime I have difficulty in reading insight his sentence.
Others?

Correct me if I am wrong or someone changes his idea.

Edit : Regarding the barbarian warrior move, I think he has high chance to move toward the mine through the forest since it's a safer route, so the archer might need to move 1 NE next turn.

 

[bestsss]

>>Edit : Regarding the barbarian warrior move, I think he has high chance to move toward the mine through the forest since it's a safer route, so the archer might need to move 1 NE next turn.

Like I told the barbarians look quite deep (like 8 tiles) and 'push' mission (which selects the shortest path). That's it if the barbarian is willing to pillage, if not the warrior should go for the mine or the city. North/west has priority (since that's how they check the map grid).

But yeah, if moves in the forest the archer should go NE to cover, otherwise (if moving next to the pasture) stay put and heal.

The above observation about my opinion is correct. I prefer monument in the new city, although that's not important as 1st build I suppose, however we need culture border if we settle the horse site.

 

[Duckweed]

I prefer monument in the new city, although that's not important as 1st build I suppose, however we need culture border if we settle the horse site.

What's the site of the horse city in your mind? mine is 1NW of the horse, which does not need culture help from gold city. Other choices don't need either, the horse city always can has FP and horse to work 1st.

 

[shyuhe]

I'm going to hold off playing until we can get some agreement here Hope nobody minds.

I agree that the archer will likely have to move 1NE next turn to deal with the barb.

I don't think we'll settle horse until the 4th city at the earliest - I'd rather go get the copper FP site as #3.

 

[bestsss]

Yes I was thinking about 1NW to get the fish as well.

I thought the horse city would have border contact and won't need roads but both gold/horse need border pop, so it doesn't matter. The only good thing about the monument it'd double the culture relatevely soon but that's not important.

 

[The Rook]

So it looks like consensus of the 2nd city goes to 1W of the gold,

new city build archer -- 2 vote from Shyuhe and me -- others?

Happy with 1W for the city site.

I think it would make sense to pop our 2nd city's borders in the not too distant future, if only to close off the north, giving us chance to claim it at leisure. I don't think we need to worry too much about Monty squeezing a settler through immediately, but if we plan to take obsolete's 2nd proposed site, and the copper before the horse, then it's possible Monty will have expanded considerably in the mean time. So I believe building a monument would be a sound build soon, if not instantly.

Whip the settler this turn -- 3 votes from Dirk, Bestsss and me.
next turn -- 2 vote from Shyuhe and The Rook ?
others?

the overflow goes to archer -- 2 votes from Bestsss and me (I'd like to fogbust the western land sooner than later) Edit: Dirk seems to change his opinion to prefer archer?
worker -- 1 vote from Dirk
depend on the warrior move -- 1 vote from The Rook
.

Not too worried about the that barb warrior, but if more barbs appear we may be compromised. Our warriors make fine fogbusters, but are less stout defenders.

Having spent some more time looking at the save, I think I like whipping settler this turn and building archer next makes sense. It would have been neat if we could whip the settler then grow back to size 4 and build an archer in the following 2 turns, unfortunately we are fractionally short of food/hammers. But we could grow back in 2 turns whilst putting upto 24 hammers in the archer, then the following turn work both the mines (if barbs permit) for overflow. After that, build worker at size 4. Also, as Bestsss points out, we could even get an archer in 1 turn after the settler by working the tiles inefficiently should the need arise. Anyway, I'm happy to go with the majority.

Edit : Regarding the barbarian warrior move, I think he has high chance to move toward the mine through the forest since it's a safer route, so the archer might need to move 1 NE next turn.

Yes, it would offer a potential good percentage diversion in this case, I'd upgrade to combat first though. Unfortunately, if the barb is absolutely set for the mine there is little we can do to stop him, short of taking dubious risks.

 

[Duckweed]

So in capital -- whip the settler this turn and let the overflow go to archer, finish the archer and then start the worker.

New city -- build archer or monument -- nor clear yet

Shyuhe, I think you can go ahead if there's no more input tonight.

 

[shyuhe]

Ok, I'll go ahead and play later tonight for about 9 turns. I'll go archer in Delhi first before switching to worker.

 

[shyuhe]

Play went as planned.

IT: Revolt to slavery, whip settler.

T(1): Barb goes to the flat tile instead of the hill! I move the archer next to Delhi to bait him. Settler heads towards 1W.

T(2): Barb suicides. Goal one accomplished

Another barb archer shows up to the SE, I move the archer to intercept. Worker heads towards gold.

T(3): Settle Bombay. Barb suicides yet again The western warrior is heading towards the copper. I'm hoping to camp on the forested hill that overlooks it.

T(4): Delhi completes its archer, switch to worker. Bombay completes the gold mine and switches tiles. Confucianism is also founded

Wheel is completed so I pause here, as I realized that we forgot to discuss the next tech

This is where we are:

I think wheel finished faster from the known AI discount. So what do we research next? Also, I think Bombay should work the gold mine until a FP can get irrigated but I'm not sure if that's optimal. Thoughts? Our two archers are engaging the enemy (hoping for suicides). The warrior has reached the forested hill to the west to make sure no cities pop up near the copper.

 

[obsolete]

Mmm, that city of Bombay is looking like some rookie founded it. All this optimal talk, and yet we found it without even an archer near to defend it? It is on flatland, with no culture defense, not even a unit inside it, and only thing near it is a warrior with 1 useless promotion for city defense. If any barbs come out of the north black tiles, that Bombay is basically lost.

I still can't believe we decided to go this route...

 

[Dirk1302]

^There are 2 warriors near and the north is temporarily fogbusted by an aztec missionary. Hope he spreads in the new city, we don't need a monument in that case. I'd work gold until fp farmed (or cottaged). I'd research pottery next.

 

[shyuhe]

There was also an Aztec scout running around the NW of Bombay 2-3 turns ago, so it's relatively safe. If Gandhi gives us Hinduism, do we want to convert? Ragnar declares at 0/50/90/100, Monty at 0/30/80/100. Ragnar doesn't weight religion much so I don't think he'll drop to annoyed if we take Hinduism.

 

[bestsss]

Pottery->Writing next seems quite logical.
Should move the warrior S/W from bombay to fogbust the north around the horsies. Overall everything goes as planned.

 

[Duckweed]

Pottery->Writing, I mentioned before and there's no objection.

I'd let capital grow to size 5 at the same turn gold to be connected (i.e. build an archer or barrack this turn Edit: should be next turn). Bombay working on mined gold now is probably better, but not very sure.

 

[Snaaty]

im lurking this one too

for trying this and good luck

 

[shyuhe]

Bombay working the gold first basically sacrifices growth for commerce now. I'd rather open up pottery at least (and probably writing for a library) so I'd opt for commerce now and grow later.

 

[Duckweed]

I did some calculation:

work on mined gold -- produce 3H + 7C for 8 turns until the worker finishing farming FP, then 3 turns working on FP to grow to size 2 totally the city produce 24H + 59C

work on FP -- 4 more turns to size 2, produce 4C, from turn 5, Edit : produce 1F + 3H + 8C per turn for 4 turns and 2F + 3H + 8C per turn for 3 turns after FP is irrigated, so in total the city produce 10F + 21H + 60C

Hence after 11 turns, the difference is 3H vs 10F + 1C, what do you think?

 

[Duckweed]

im lurking this one too

for trying this and good luck

Feel free to comment.

 

[shyuhe]

I don't think we're strapped for hammers right now, so working the FP to size 2 sounds better.