The least deserving civilization?

[Arms Longfellow]

God, please don't use that cliche "if it wasn't for us you'd all be speaking German" line, it isn't completely true and does nothing but spark flame wars.

I do think America deserves to be in because they contributed many inventions and have been a dominant world power. Yes, even if the United States completely crumbled within 50 years, what they did should ensure they're remembered for some time.

Anyway, you guys who are doing write in votes for Mongolia are crazy. I also disagree with the people saying Native Americans don't deserve to be in because they weren't advanced. They had a different way of doing things than Eurasia, so what? How does that make them any less of a civilization?

 

[Archaelicos]

Although I think every Civ "deserves" to be in the game, there are finite resources available and we must pick and choose. For my money, when you can't come up with a compelling UU, UB, and are struggling to think of a decent leader, the Civ probably didn't last long enough or wasn't distinct enough to warrant inclusion by the designers. But they, in their wisdom, gave us the tools to add those Civs ourselves. So the Civs that deserve to be in but cannot be included by the designers due to resource limitations, can still be added.

I voted for Holy Rome. Although it was influential, it wasn't really a "civ," more of an amorphous conglomerate of subjugated powers. But then, so was the Soviet Union, the Persian Empire, and even Ancient Greece. Perhaps my definition of a civ is too centered on ethnicity rather than cultural uniqueness.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

maybe 70 years, that's nothing compared to Germany's history

Germany, Russia, England, Japan, and the United States created the world that we live in today via WWII. The United States (whether or not you like it) is the military powerhouse (think nukes/technology/Navy/private contractors) and economic foundation for the world right now. Think the petro-dollar, how much the US imports, and how US corporations have invaded most of the 3rd world.

Also, 70 years in our space age (modern era, whatever) is like 200 years in the renaissance. Everything is so much faster paced, i mean.

 

[DroopyTofu]

Although I think every Civ "deserves" to be in the game, there are finite resources available and we must pick and choose. For my money, when you can't come up with a compelling UU, UB, and are struggling to think of a decent leader, the Civ probably didn't last long enough or wasn't distinct enough to warrant inclusion by the designers. But they, in their wisdom, gave us the tools to add those Civs ourselves. So the Civs that deserve to be in but cannot be included by the designers due to resource limitations, can still be added.

I second that!!

Welcome to CFC SneakY BenjI

 

[NintendoTogepi]

This is pure bias.

The poll is fine, anyone who doesn't think America and Mongolia should be in are biased.

And you guys are getting nitpicky. GREECE doesn't deserve to be in now? India either?

So let's have a game with Rome, Spain, Germany, England, China, Arabia, Ottomans, Persia, Inca, Russia and France?

 

[DroopyTofu]

Good point, if they did that, I'd stop playing the game and do something that doesn't rot my brain

 

[fish6]

I think it's probably Mali. What did they ever do? Second least would be maybe the Khmer?

I left off the following for obvious reasons:

Rome
Greece
Egypt
England
France
Russia
America
India
Mongolia
China

So what do you think is the least deserving Civilization to be in Civ 4 (including Warlords and BTS Civs)? You can pick multiple if you like.

Well, Mali was the richest country in the world at one point, being the main supplier of gold to the world. Their wealth can be measured when Mansa Musa went on his pillgramage to Mecca and gave away so much gold, that the value of gold decreased. Pretty influential to me. Timbuktu, with the University of Sankore, was a center of learning the in the Islamic world, and thousands took the trip across the Sahara from the Middle East to attend. On top of that, Mali's conversion to Islam provided West Africa to be much more entrentched in the Islamic world, allowing for a large Muslim population in the part of the world today. So it's pretty safe to say they did do something

I voted for the Celts, Zulu, and the Native Americans (I voted to quickly so I forgot about Holy Rome). As an important aspect of civlizations are cities, I feel that the civilizations in the game would have to have cities. This disqualafies both the Celts and Zulu.

Though the Native Americans did have some cities (such as Cahokia which had a population of 40,000 about 1000 years ago), it is ridiculuos to put such a diverse group of people into one civilization. There were hunderends upon hunderens of Native American nations and lumping them into one is was a terrible idea.

The Holy Roman Empire was simply Germany during the Middle Ages, and Germany is already in the game. It really had no influence whatsoever, simply being a collection of hundrends of tiny states, lacking any sort of authority whatsoever. The emperor is probably one of the best representations of a figure head-- a leader with no power. One of the best sayings about the Holy Roman Empire would have to be, "It wasn't Roman and it wasn't and empire."

 

[Wolfshanze]

The emperor is probably one of the best representations of a figure head-- a leader with no power. One of the best sayings about the Holy Roman Empire would have to be, "It wasn't Roman and it wasn't and empire."

Don't forget it wasn't "Holy" either!

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

lol.
I'm veclempt! Talk amongst yourselves... I'll give you a topic: The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire... discuss! yeah Mike Myers

 

[Stoney the I]

American civilization not being among the most deserving is silly, Imo. The united states contributed greatly to civilization. The bill of rights is one of the first documents where a civilization recognizes it's citizens have rights.......

'

yeah the roman census wasnt THAT much earlier....

 

[Huayna Capac357]

America was the first nation to step onto the moon. No other civ has done that.

 

[CarlBob]

Whoa, what's with all the Holy Roman hate?

There's some serious ignorance being tossed around here. Just because two 'civs' historically have partially overlapped geographically or ethnically, etc... they don't deserve to be in the game?

Seems most people just vote for the civ they know the least of.

I mean, come on, there's probably not a single civ on that list that conforms perfectly in every way to whatever definition one has of a civilization.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Whoa, what's with all the Holy Roman hate?

There's some serious ignorance being tossed around here. Just because two 'civs' historically have partially overlapped geographically or ethnically, etc... they don't deserve to be in the game?

Seems most people just vote for the civ they know the least of.

Whoa, wha'ts with all the HRE love?

There's some serious ignorance being tossed around here in defense of the HRE. Just because the HRE is not Holy, not Roman, not an Empire, not an ethnicity, not a nationality, not a Civ that hasn't already been covered (or should be covered) by Germany and Austria, and nothing more then a series of treaties, etc... doesn't mean they deserve the label of "CIVILIZATION" slapped on them and fully endorsed as the equal of all others.

Some people just throw up a defense for the falsely labeled "civ" (ahem) of the HRE, that they seem to know little about, defend it, then walk away without actually saying anything.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Whoa, wha'ts with all the HRE love?

There's some serious ignorance being tossed around here in defense of the HRE. Just because the HRE is not Holy, not Roman, not an Empire, not an ethnicity, not a nationality, not a Civ that hasn't already been covered (or should be covered) by Germany and Austria, and nothing more then a series of treaties, etc... doesn't mean they deserve the label of "CIVILIZATION" slapped on them and fully endorsed as the equal of all others.

Some people just throw up a defense for the falsely labeled "civ" (ahem) of the HRE, that they seem to know little about, defend it, then walk away without actually saying anything.

Yes! Wolfshanze and I agree on something .

HRE = Medieval Germany.

For Example, Frederick Barbarossa = HRE. However, Frederick Barbarossa = Germany. QED, HRE = Germany. Etc, Etc, Etc.

 

[Wolfshanze]

HRE = Medieval Germany.

For Example, Frederick Barbarossa = HRE. However, Frederick Barbarossa = Germany. QED, HRE = Germany. Etc, Etc, Etc.

Don't forget...

HRE = Austria too...

For example, the HRE literally turned-into the Austrian Empire with the same capital and same Emperor! Talk about coincidence!

The HRE is so not a civ, it can't even decide which nation it is... is it Germany? Is it Austria? Is it something else?

No... it's a bunch of treaties and little else... a namesake to look good with the family herald... that's pretty much it folks... the whole point is the HRE doesn't even know what it is, so how can anyone else label it a Civ?

 

[frekk]

But was Rome destroyed when Carthage realized they only needed to take Rome

It probably would have been, if they had seized Rome.

As far as the whole HRE thing ...

Every medieval state was nothing more than a system of treaties, that's how the feudal system worked. The organization and origins of medieval France wasn't in the least bit different from the HRE. HRE is in there more as a representative of a medieval European civ, since most of the other European civs seem to be based on different periods. France existed in the Middle Ages but France in the game chiefly seems focussed on the Republic of France, not the "Western Frankish Realm" which was established by the Treaty of Verdun (which also established the "Eastern Frankish Realm", later known as the HRE). That France was no more a united polity than the HRE, and included within itself numerous disparate ethnic groups who were not always loyal to the crown of "France" - the Burgundians, Aquitanians, Bretons, etc all had fallouts with the Franks and later Capetians, some even as late as WW2 (the Second Emsav etc)

 

[CarlBob]

Whoa, wha'ts with all the HRE love?

There's some serious ignorance being tossed around here in defense of the HRE. Just because the HRE is not Holy, not Roman, not an Empire, not an ethnicity, not a nationality, not a Civ that hasn't already been covered (or should be covered) by Germany and Austria, and nothing more then a series of treaties, etc... doesn't mean they deserve the label of "CIVILIZATION" slapped on them and fully endorsed as the equal of all others.

Some people just throw up a defense for the falsely labeled "civ" (ahem) of the HRE, that they seem to know little about, defend it, then walk away without actually saying anything.

'False labels' 'full endorsement'? Calm down mate

A formal title of "CIVILIZATION" would be loose at best for Civ IV and can(as I said) hardly be applied to a number of the 'civs' in question. Far be it for me to say that every one of these civs are of equal historical importance and distinction, nor do I believe I said that either.

But I don't believe mere misnomers and wrong labels should disqualify HRE completely. Most of the other stuff has already been pointed out. And I don't see you saying much either... other than just echoing those tired and rather subjective views.

You really love that mod of yours huh?

Yes! Wolfshanze and I agree on something .

HRE = Medieval Germany.

For Example, Frederick Barbarossa = HRE. However, Frederick Barbarossa = Germany. QED, HRE = Germany. Etc, Etc, Etc.

Come again? By that logic: William the Conqueror = Duke of Normandy and King of England. Normandy is in France, therefore: England = France.

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc...

 

[Wolfshanze]

As far as the whole HRE thing ...

Every medieval state was nothing more than a system of treaties, that's how the feudal system worked. The organization and origins of medieval France wasn't in the least bit different from the HRE. HRE is in there more as a representative of a medieval European civ, since most of the other European civs seem to be based on different periods. France existed in the Middle Ages but France in the game chiefly seems focussed on the Republic of France, not the "Western Frankish Realm" which was established by the Treaty of Verdun (which also established the "Eastern Frankish Realm", later known as the HRE). That France was no more a united polity than the HRE, and included within itself numerous disparate ethnic groups who were not always loyal to the crown of "France" - the Burgundians, Aquitanians, Bretons, etc all had fallouts with the Franks and later Capetians, some even as late as WW2 (the Second Emsav etc)

We'll assume everything you say is correct (and I would argue some finer points, but let's just pretend everything you say is the truth), then your whole point is moot... because unlike Germany, France, Austria or any of the others... the HRE never evolved... the whole point of a "CIVILIZATION" is something that evolves over time and is distinct from others... the HRE is none of that... it was NEVER more then a series of treaties and pacts... it was never identifiable as a nation... Germany, France, Austria all evolved and all have a national and ethnic identity... the HRE is none of that.

By your own definition, if the only thing that is required to be a Civ is a one-time-only series of alliances and pacts that never evolves and has nothing to do with a national identity, then by your own qualifications, NATO, the Warsaw Pact, NAFTA and the Kyoto Accords all qualify as Civilizations... because they share pretty much all the qualifications the HRE brings to the table.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

It sounded right in my head.......

However, Barbarossa was German, from Germany (aka the HRE).

William the Conqueror was not from England.

 

[Turquoiside]

American civilization not being among the most deserving is silly, Imo. The united states contributed greatly to civilization. The bill of rights is one of the first documents where a civilization recognizes it's citizens have rights.......

Also (directed at Europeans, who are making this claim) you have extremely short memories. You would all be bowing to swastikas if it weren't for the united states(well and russia but for this purpose we are going to pretend like the U.S.S.R. was useless ). xD

By the first document recognizing its citizens have right, do you mean something like......The Magna Carta?