The Left and Islam

[Princeps]

That speaks volumes. Its those criminal Israeli jews fault.

Did I say Jews?

Also, what volumes?

I don't care if hundreds of Israelis die, Why should I weep for them, if my sympathy would benefit a terrorist regime? - the Israelis can prevent such acts- they have chosen not to do it effectively, instead take collective revenge on the Palestinians, along with other crimes that they commit on them.

Who's the worse terrorist?

I do not find the deaths of innocents as a good thing, however, the state of Israel, punishes innocents on a scale the "terrorists" could only dream of. It does it regularly - it imprisons children of another people without court, keeps them locked with "secret evidence" not available to the defense. It deliberately forces the Palestinians to live in poverty, it constantly provocates acts of terrorism. There are consequences to that.

 

[Elrohir]

Some, but not all Leftists do show an unhealthy and irrational support, or at least tolerance, for radical Islam. In the US, when Hezbollah or Hamas blows up a civilian target, everyone condemns it. In Europe, when Hezbollah or Hamas does the exact same thing, the government says something like "We regret that these actions were the inevitable result of Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank", or some other crappy speech that turns the blame around on Israel.

Personally, I think it all goes back to Socialism: The proletariat is oppressed, and they should help other oppressed peoples. Regardless of whether the proletariat truly is oppressed, or whether most leftists truly are members of the proletariat, they do seem to look out for those who they think are oppressed, even if it doesn't make sense in the long run, or they have to turn their backs on earlier allies.

Case in point: Israel. Who helped Israel "unofficially" develop nuclear weapons in the 1960's? Not the US - socialist France. Why? Because they thought Israel was being oppressed and threatened by her larger neighbors. And they were right - but when Israel kicked the collective butts of her attackers, and a few smart PR guys covered the front pages with pictures of suffering Palestinians in refugee camps in Egypt - of course not mentioning that they left voluntarily, planning on coming back after Israel was annihilated - then suddenly, Israel was no longer the oppressed, it was the imperialistic oppressor, and must be opposed! Which is why even today the left so insanely supports Hezbollah and Hamas - because it believes Israel is being imperialistic and oppressing them.

That's my take on this, anyway.

 

[skadistic]

I hear about atrocities against civilians too often to agree to that statement.
.

So tell me how many of these were commited by US soldiers and exactly how many wre there?

Enough to make some people realise that little differences exist between both sides. I've seen enough and only on the net. Remember this wonderful movie about British (or was it US?) soldeirs taking a few Iraqis to their base and beating them up? "dont hurt me!" BAM! BAM! BAM! In the head, in the groin..... These people are just a few thoughts away from mass atrocities against civilians. But we do have individual cases already. Cutting someone's head of is very very unpleasant, but being shot by a modern age SS squad is also displeasing.

So exactly how many civilians were targeted in Falluja by US soldiers? How many were allowed to leave the city so they wouldn't accidently be killed? Would the same people who blow up mosques and markets allow the civilians to clear out first? Why not? Could it be that those civilians are the targets? How many civilians have been targeted in Baghdad by US soldiers?
Modern day SS squads? You mean the terrorist geared up in uniform and rounding 20,30,50 people at a time and exacuting them?

 

[Gelion]

Why do you want to know the answer to these? To me all that matters is that it happened. I'm not going to scroll over last 3 years of news reports from Iraq you could do that yourself.

 

[skadistic]

Why do you want to know the answer to these? QUOTE]

I want you to back up your claims that US soldiers diliberately target civilians just like the terrorists. Answering those questions would debunk you own claims that the US does the things you claim in the scope you claim. If you can't back up or are unwilling to maybe you shouldn't make them in the first place.

 

[Gelion]

http://www.google.ch/search?hl=en&q=US+soldiers+shoot+civilians&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

http://www.google.ch/search?hl=en&q=US+soldiers+shoot+civilians&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

While that first link may be slightly disturbing, it should be known that, if you think that is bad, imagine mass media during WWII. Stuff like this happens in every war.

 

[Mise]

Naziassbandit or what ever he calls himsekf now. He has openly supported terror groups and their tacticts of targeting civilians.

Well, AFAIK, he's under 18. Most school kids who say they "support terrorism", or some other extremist view, are saying it to get a rise out of people, and for attention. It's the same kind of mentality that sends 17 year olds to the military, because they view war as glamorous and heroic. Makes them feel big in other words.

 

[greekguy]

Some, but not all Leftists do show an unhealthy and irrational support, or at least tolerance, for radical Islam. In the US, when Hezbollah or Hamas blows up a civilian target, everyone condemns it. In Europe, when Hezbollah or Hamas does the exact same thing, the government says something like "We regret that these actions were the inevitable result of Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank", or some other crappy speech that turns the blame around on Israel.

Personally, I think it all goes back to Socialism: The proletariat is oppressed, and they should help other oppressed peoples. Regardless of whether the proletariat truly is oppressed, or whether most leftists truly are members of the proletariat, they do seem to look out for those who they think are oppressed, even if it doesn't make sense in the long run, or they have to turn their backs on earlier allies.

Case in point: Israel. Who helped Israel "unofficially" develop nuclear weapons in the 1960's? Not the US - socialist France. Why? Because they thought Israel was being oppressed and threatened by her larger neighbors. And they were right - but when Israel kicked the collective butts of her attackers, and a few smart PR guys covered the front pages with pictures of suffering Palestinians in refugee camps in Egypt - of course not mentioning that they left voluntarily, planning on coming back after Israel was annihilated - then suddenly, Israel was no longer the oppressed, it was the imperialistic oppressor, and must be opposed! Which is why even today the left so insanely supports Hezbollah and Hamas - because it believes Israel is being imperialistic and oppressing them.

That's my take on this, anyway.

Very well said.

 

[Bast]

you need to try to get out of the easy patters we can read in your side note : Left = University = Liberals = Islam etc... First, Left and Right as political ideologies have as much to do with Islam than they have with the color of your pants. Secondly I don't see how some "leftist" or any other group would be stupid enough to want to be massively killed. Thirdly, it's the very purpose of fundamentalists and terrorists to make people think simple and manichean, white or black, easy short cuts that indeed make it easier for them to spread their propaganda.
By entering this binary arena you do exactly what they expect you to do.

No. I'm trying to save our young men (mostly but also all sorts of people) from becoming disillusioned and joining the jihadists or even just converting to Islam and becoming an extremist.

I don't believe Left = University = Liberals = Islam. Hardly! I love Liberalism as it used to be. Liberalism as an idea from the Age of Enlightenment. This isn't Islam. LOL! I can't stay away from universities in my own life. And like I said, I consider myself a centrist. So you are wrong.

My agenda is NOT anti-left. But there are some disillusioned young people on the left who are joining the other side. And I want to stop that.

Imagine if my children or your children becomes a jihadist? I will just die.

 

[Bast]

Some, but not all Leftists do show an unhealthy and irrational support, or at least tolerance, for radical Islam. In the US, when Hezbollah or Hamas blows up a civilian target, everyone condemns it. In Europe, when Hezbollah or Hamas does the exact same thing, the government says something like "We regret that these actions were the inevitable result of Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank", or some other crappy speech that turns the blame around on Israel.

Personally, I think it all goes back to Socialism: The proletariat is oppressed, and they should help other oppressed peoples. Regardless of whether the proletariat truly is oppressed, or whether most leftists truly are members of the proletariat, they do seem to look out for those who they think are oppressed, even if it doesn't make sense in the long run, or they have to turn their backs on earlier allies.

Case in point: Israel. Who helped Israel "unofficially" develop nuclear weapons in the 1960's? Not the US - socialist France. Why? Because they thought Israel was being oppressed and threatened by her larger neighbors. And they were right - but when Israel kicked the collective butts of her attackers, and a few smart PR guys covered the front pages with pictures of suffering Palestinians in refugee camps in Egypt - of course not mentioning that they left voluntarily, planning on coming back after Israel was annihilated - then suddenly, Israel was no longer the oppressed, it was the imperialistic oppressor, and must be opposed! Which is why even today the left so insanely supports Hezbollah and Hamas - because it believes Israel is being imperialistic and oppressing them.

That's my take on this, anyway.

Very well said. But don't blame socialism totally. Remember what Bebel said, "Anti-semitism is the socialism of fools" just like "Anti-Americanism is the anti-Imperialism of fools".

 

[Sidhe]

I'm anti far right and far left, I think their both complete dinguses, or should that be dingi? The philosophy is fine in as far as it goes, but the practice is horrible.

Socialism seems to be the atithesis of fundementalist belief? I really am at a loss to explain why people who are left wing would want to join something that more closely resembles a right wing organisation or at the least a conservative organisation, seems nonsensicle

 

[Mise]

My take on it is simple. Right wingers see the world as purely "Us vs Them". "You're either with us or you're against us". Since the Left isn't "with" Israel, it must be against Israel, and therefore it supports terrorism.

The trap that many left wingers fall into is believing this Us vs Them BS themselves, and playing up to the Leftist stereotype.

 

[Bast]

I'm anti far right and far left, I think their both complete dinguses, or should that be dingi? The philosophy is fine in as far as it goes, but the practice is horrible.

Socialism seems to be the atithesis of fundementalist belief? I really am at a loss to explain why people who are left wing would want to join something that more closely resembles a right wing organisation or at the least a conservative organisation, seems nonsensicle

That's precisely the POINT! But you know why they join? You know why they sympathise with them? Because they're seen as the underdog! It happens in sports too.

The poor Muslims are so poor and the ones in western countries are been persecuted. Not true!

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and if we don't do anything we'll all be living under sharia law and all women will be in burqas.

Islam is NOT an underdog.

 

[Sidhe]

That's precisely the POINT! But you know why they join? You know why they sympathise with them? Because they're seen as the underdog! It happens in sports too.

The poor Muslims are so poor and the ones in western countries are been persecuted. Not true!

They must accept some blame for their actions, if this is persecution I don't see it. As for actual persecution of Muslims, it happens and is happening, I don't find either side worthy of lending support to though. I think they are both mired in a circular hatred that is difficult to break out from. I wont judge them for that though, I have seen where religous bigotry and intolerance can lead. Watching the Irish situation for years, a people with much more in common than Isralei and Muslim, who's division was fired by religion and intolerance. Whilst I can understand the situation, I think the whole thing is best forgotten by both sides, and put down as what happens when abberant behaviour becomes more acceptable.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and if we don't do anything we'll all be living under sharia law and all women will be in burqas.

Islam is NOT an underdog.

That's a slippery slope logical fallacy.

I somehow doubt that Islam is going to supplant a secular West by it's ideals.

 

[Bast]

They must accept some blame for their actions, if this is persecution I don't see it. As for actual persecution of Muslims, it happens and is happening, I don't find either side worthy of lending support to though. I think they are both mired in a circular hatred that is difficult to break out from. I wont judge them for that though, I have seen where religous bigotry and intolerance can lead. Watching the Irish situation for years, a people with much more in common than Isralei and Muslim, who's division was fired by religion and intolerance. Whilst I can understand the situation, I think the whole thing is best forgotten by both sides, and put down as what happens when abberant behaviour becomes more acceptable.

What's more pressing than the Israel-Arab situation is that we're losing our young people to the Jihads at home. There was a highly publicized case of an Australian man that joined the Jihad movement. That's because he was caught. What about others? Any young person with leftist ideologies could be exposed to their propaganda right now!!

That's a slippery slope logical fallacy.

I somehow doubt that Islam is going to supplant a secular West by it's ideals.

That's the kind of complacency that I worry the most about.

 

[Truronian]

What's more pressing than the Israel-Arab situation is that we're losing our young people to the Jihads at home. There was a highly publicized case of an Australian man that joined the Jihad movement. That's because he was caught. What about others? Any young person with leftist ideologies could be exposed to their propaganda right now!!

If such unique examples were indicative of the greater picture you would not be seeing them on TV. The reason for such high publicity is because it is not the norm.

 

[Sidhe]

That's the kind of complacency that I worry the most about.

It's not complacency it's a realistic approach. In this country they have eschewed multiculturalism in favour of the more sensible melting pot idea. Or the when in Rome deal. If you are that worried about your country, then lobby to get anti hatred laws in place. And make recruitment or advocation of hate organisations a criminal offense.

 

[warpus]

The problem is western people who are "leftist" who supports Islam will eventually find that they've been fooled.

So.. are you saying that the left supports Islam, or that the left supports terrorism?

Cuz.. I dare you to find one instance of anyone on the left speaking out in favour of islamic terrorism.

This article is bunk.

 

[Bast]

It's not complacency it's a realistic approach. In this country they have eschewed multiculturalism in favour of the more sensible melting pot idea. Or the when in Rome deal. If you are that worried about your country, then lobby to get anti hatred laws in place. And make recruitment or advocation of hate organisations a criminal offense.

That's great but how's that going to stop Jihadist propaganda from spreading?