The "Let's Figure Out Sicily" thread

[AtlantaMarty]

Indeed. I'm sceptical whether some of those have enough room for a meaningful gameplay.

This is why I think it would be best to switch over to the bigger map soon. If you add in other civs and then switch over later, you have to balance those civs twice. If you switch over now and then add in the other civs, you only have to balance them once.

But even if you opt not to use the 96x145 map, I don't think Bohemia and Serbia are too small. They're just as big as the Netherlands, Genoa, and Sicily in RFCE, or Babylon and Korea in DoC.

 

[AtlantaMarty]

Of course the problem with some of those is that they’d be extremely small, especially Bohemia and Serbia

It doesn't matter how big it is, it matters how you use it.

 

[The Turk]

No, other way around. I would even daresay that it might be better to have the Lombards just be represented by independent cities like the Visigoths to be conquered by the Franks or Germans, with the "Lombard"/Milanese/northern Italian civ only spawning in 1167 (formation of the Lombard League) as in DoC - at the very least, I would see that as a much more important component of the potential civ.

Just make a unique city-state called the North Italian city-state which has high defence, and unique units. That would actually be ideal. I don't see the point of adding a ahistorical civilization, based on a fractious historical coalition. Think of the Pope, but without a leader. They should spring up around 900-1000 (see Chris Wickham's Sleepwalking into a New World.

 

[Swarbs]

Good, because I agree

I suppose UHVs would involve a rapid conquest of Italy (called Gian Galeazzo’s Ambition or something) and some way of beating down France (as revenge for/preventing the Italian wars). Dunno about the 3rd, though.

How does this relate to Sicily? Why, as yet another existential threat to them in addition to the Byzantines, the Aragonese, the Castillians, the Tunisians, and so on!

Personally I think Lombardy would be more as a viable challenge to Sicily. As it stands, a Sicilian civ would be broadly unopposed in South Italy, given that Naples is rarely conquered by the AI. The Lombards would give them a meaningful opponent to deal with.

Also I think the Lombards could have a viable transition into the Lombard League, admittedly a bit ahistorically implemented. UHV options:

- Control all of Italy by 800AD
- Kill 20 German units by 1250AD
- Be the first civ to adopt Free Labour (based on the LL system of representatives appointed by individual municipalities)
- Build Leonardo's Inventions, the Palazzo San Giorgio and the Leaning Tower

 

[AtlantaMarty]

- Control all of Italy by 800AD

Excluding Rome. The Pope cannot attack or be attacked.

 

[Swarbs]

Excluding Rome. The Pope cannot attack or be attacked.

Obviously

Although I do still think that it would be good, if possible, to add a condition in that a civ which controls all of Italy, or at least five of the six mainland provinces excluding Lazio, should gain a form of influence over the Pope. But in turn gain a form of resentment from other Catholic civs.

This could be added in the form of a title, "King of Italy", which gives the holder +20 faith (if Catholic), +10 gold (tithe from St Peter's Basilica), and -2 diplo with all Catholic civs as well as always being eligible to lead a crusade. Claiming that title could form part of the goals for the Lombards and the 1st UHV for the HRE, which I think is still a fairly easy goal for them.

 

[PinkPallin]

Lombards is tough because they’re definitely important enough to warrant their own civ but they’re so squeezed in by Venice and Genoa. What if Genoa was made much more likely to collapse from the 14th century on (their historical decline) which would then soon after respawn as Milan?

We'd better keep in mind that the early medieval Longobards (Germanic invaders subjugating Latins and Goths) were quite different from the late medieval Lombards (a melt of Longobards, Latins and Goths).
If the Italian Kingdom had not been crushed by the Franks, Genoa (and Pisa and Amalfi as well) would not have become a republic. And Venice wouldn’t have been founded.

So if you want to play the Longobards you should start in the North East of Italy (Aquileia or Cividale), having as UHVs transferring your capital to Pavia, conquering all Italy and defeating the Franks. Genoa as an independent city to be conquered, Venice not founded leaving room for Verona or Treviso. If the Italian Kingdom falls, than we can have Genoa and Venice.
On the other hand, the Lombard League is quite complex. It was a confederation that only lasted some 50 years. And playing as the Duchy of Milan would have real sense in opposition to Florence and Venice.
Or we could not follow history: starting as the Longobards (creating the Kingdom of Italy), continuing as the Lombard League (deafeating the HRE) and ending as the Duchy of Milan (cultural UHV).

I think that if a further version of RFCE will enlarge Northern Italy (allowing Milan, Pavia, Modena, Bologna, Florence and Pisa), than we should have two more civilizations: Milan and Tuscany. Milan oriented to military, Tuscany to economics; and both to Renaissance, one against the other.

 

[AtlantaMarty]

I think that if a further version of RFCE will enlarge Northern Italy (allowing Milan, Pavia, Modena, Bologna, Florence and Pisa), than we should have two more civilizations: Milan and Tuscany. Milan oriented to military, Tuscany to economics; and both to Renaissance, one against the other.

There is a plan to expand the map by about 70% (and also add more land in the East), but it probably won't be ready until 2020

 

[gilgames]

IMO, Sicily does not make much sense to add! But, Lombards does. As aragon you must kill all sicilians to get your uhv. While having lombards there would be a good fight.
There is a similar problem with norway+scotland.
Lombards also could controll italy and in players hands, would be decent. Means also more competition for south italy. Yes genoa should have higher willing to conquer it. Not just spain and/or aragon.
Ps: i played lombards in ++ and it was fun!

 

[johnfloyd27]

I recently listened to the fantastic Norman Centuries Podcast and now I really wish Sicily were playable.

And the pope should call multiple crusades against them!

UHV ideas:
1. Establish historic Kingdom of Sicily (sicily, Malta, southern Italy) (while surviving a crusade or two!) maybe to make this even more interesting... your army starts in France to represent the house of Hauteville’s beginnings?

2. Let’s go crusading! (Establish the principality of Antioch and the African dominion by X date and hold them for Y years. Also, pay the pope Z gold to get them to stop sending crusades against you.)

3. Imperial dreams (Vassalize Germany and Byzantium or make sure they’re dead by a certain date)

 

[Genghis Khaiser]

Here's an UP idea for you: Gets Faith points from buildings of any religion. This to represent its multiculturalism.