I agree (at least somewhat) with both the Lord Warden of Loaves and the Red-pigmented Wolf. I also want to clarify a few things, in case my points were too convoluted or I unnecessarily ruffled too many of the Warden's feathers.
To wrap up
"The Criminal Mind":
I want to make clear: I don't claim to be a criminologist either (or a criminal for that matter). But I do have some compelling data gathered from my personal observations (previous post) and the testimony of a respected veteran homicide detective (in a city with an unfortunately high murder rate) ... esp. when he says that nearly 100% of the murderers they collar act and think in this way. I totally agree, Loaf, that folks like you and I would consider the punishment before knowingly perpetrating a crime, and we would ultimately decide not to do it. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/goodwork.gif" border=0> But in weighing our decisions, we would not be choosing between death and "a slap." To state it like that is simply not true. Instead, our choice would be between death and the rest of our lives in jail which, as you point out in your next paragraph, can be seen as just as bad.
So my main point on deterrence was this: Those of us who are going to be deterred by ANY punishment are going to be just as deterred by life in prison as by death, so the DP doesn't stop any more of "us" (but as a side-effect, it KILLS some of "us"). Based on the data I presented previously, those who actually do commit the crimes (not "us") are NOT deterred by prison
OR the DP because they just
"know" they'll never get caught, convicted or sentenced at all. The bottom line is that increasing the penalty would likely NOT deter the people you would want it to deter ... you-I-"us" vs. those willing to actually commit crimes ... these 2 groups just think completely differently, so what deters you would not deter them. More of them would die under the DP, but so would more of us.
BTW Loaf, I'm actually NOT arguing with you here about this point ... you already indicated that if the criminal mind is so arrogant, that would make a difference. You apparently understand what I'm saying. But I'm not saying that I've "won" that point or "won you over" or anything just because you conceded something ... I'm not bent on changing minds here. It's enough for you to see that my POV is at least possible and reasonable, even if it's not agreeable to you. If you see that I didn't pull this out of thin air or make it up without some sensible thinking & logic & analysis, that's perfect. If you think I have valid points you just don't agree with ... cool! <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/cool.gif" border=0> I don't particularly love the idea of paying a criminal's rent in prison for his lifetime. But for my own safety, I think it's the lesser of 2 evils.
On
"What If It Were You?":
Loaf, I'm VERY impressed with your answer. Your example of 40-years in jail vs. death is very, VERY good IMNSHO. Sure, I could say, "what if it's only 5-10 years? you could still have a life..." But what if it
IS 40+ years, or even the rest of your life? Maybe I, too, would want it to be over sooner rather than later. You truly make an excellent point I had not yet considered. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/goodwork.gif" border=0> I'd agree with you almost totally if not for one thing: family (i.e., loved ones). You could make such a decision for yourself, but have you considered the impact on the others that love you? What impact would your wrong & untimely death have on your siblings? parents? goldfish? <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0> I don't think you have kids yet, Loaf, but that makes a HUGE difference! If all I was living for was me, I might actually prefer death. But the key for me is my kids. If I was wrongly imprisoned right now, I would be living everyday with the hope that I could get out and be with them soon ... and I'd keep track of them & their lives while in the Big House. And, in the other direction, what would it do to THEM to grow up with a wrongly killed father, never to be seen again, them hating the gov't, society, etc. for doing this to them & their family, etc.? Maybe they would buck all authority and BECOME one of those criminals! An obviously wrongful death can do that to young, impressionable minds, and I can't say I'd blame them for it.
OR what would it do to them growing up with a wrongly jailed father they could at least visit, talk to, send Father's Day cards to, fight the judicial system constructively for my release, etc. Even at 60, being able to spend my last years with my grown children, and them with me, would be worth the wait, both for me and for them. (I could even sue and have some money for my last years, and leave it to them. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0> )
On
"Fixing The Courts?":
Sorry if my "doesn't fly" phrase sounded a bit harsh ... it wasn't personal. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/frown.gif" border=0> BTW, that response wasn't isolated to you, but to anyone who might make the same argument. I also never said YOU mentioned perfection ...
I brought up judicial perfection as an issue only because the DP is 100% perfectly irreversible. I don't want to make punishment more pleasant, just less permanent (to allow some action if exonerated). I'd make the same argument about "a hand for stealing" or "an eye for an eye". What if they're wrong? You don't get the hand or eye back. About murders escaping and recidivism: I agree with Red that escapes and resulting murders are probably very rare in the scheme of things. I don't see how they factor in much. I'd wager the overall risk is more slight, and more acceptable, than DP-ing an innocent person. At least if one person got killed that way, the family could take some small comfort that a maniac did it, and not their own gov't. Also, if we're talking death vs. life w/o parole, then recidivism is not even at issue. I'd agree at least somewhat if they were getting out, but I don't think they are. A murderer is a danger to society and life w/o parole means he's not getting out, so he can't go back in! (FL2: Are you making up things about parole? Have there actually been cases where someone got "life without the possibility of parole" and then GOT PAROLE? That would make a mockery of the judiciary. I know parole gets "knocked down" when enumerated, but doesn't No Parole = No Parole!)
"... if you don't want injustice to reign supreme, you have to be able to tolerate isolated injustices here and there in order to have greater justice overall."
You and I both believe this. We just plug different variables into the equation (sorry for the algebra reference, bud ... good luck with that!). Anyway, my view is, "if you don't want injustice to reign supreme" [i.e., innocents being killed by the gov't], "you have to be able to tolerate isolated injustices here and there" [i.e., a horrible murderer not executed but rotting in prison with a very slim possibility of escaping & killing again] "in order to have greater justice overall" [i.e., no innocents, including me, having to fear being killed unjustly]. Seems we actually believe the same basic premise... I just lean on the side that spares life in general, including mine & my family's ... and you lean on the side that takes life in the name of justice, and "sorry" if some innocents (possibly you) get killed along the way. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/spinsmile.gif" border=0>
And on your last point to Red, you're right that agreement does not equal truth, but we're not going to find an absolute truth, anyway. It may just serve us to notice that we are apart from a clear trend of human consciousness. We seem to be on the tail end of this evolution, instead of leading it, or at least getting in the middle of the pack. About a crime rate decrease, I wouldn't expect one and that doesn't mean a thing. If I'm right that the DP is not a deterrent, the crime rate will not change with or without it. If it were to go down, that would prove that the DP is ENCOURAGEMENT. Obviously, no one is saying that. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0> The point of opposing the DP is NOT about reducing the crime rate ... that's a pro-DP issue. It is to save the lives of innocents, as well as an earnest attempt to have our society elevated above our criminals. The measure then might be (if it were measurable), how has peace of mind of the people improved knowing they need not fear gov't inflicted death, and how much personal guilt is relieved, as a people, from not playing God and performing a killing, bringing them down to the killer's level? My advice: Widen the focus. Look at the big, interrelated picture. I've said it before: crime rate is not everything.
Thanks for sparring over this, Loaf! Good luck with the class!
Spiff (no calling card - already have 8 needed smilies)
[This message has been edited by SpacemanSpiff (edited June 14, 2001).]
