The Speech

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Which don't have unions.

If they don't have unions, then that's why their cars are so cheap, they aren't paying their workers enough.

 

[Archbob]

If they don't have unions, then that's why their cars are so cheap, they aren't paying their workers enough.

The workers don't seem to be complaining.
You can't expect the Japanese to adopt failing business practices(like unions) just so the big 3 can compete.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

The workers don't seem to be complaining.

How do you know they aren't?

You can't expect the Japanese to adopt failing business practices(like unions) just so the big 3 can compete.

It's the workers that make the companies adopt the unions, they don't just do it themselves.

I don't know how much workers in Japanese plants make, but their standard of life must be low.

 

[Archbob]

How do you know they aren't?



It's the workers that make the companies adopt the unions, they don't just do it themselves.

I don't know how much workers in Japanese plants make, but their standard of life must be low.

Toyota's workers actually made more than GM's workers on average last year.

Unions are a lot of litigation and red tape and their random strikes cost companies millions. Plus the healthcare cost they strike for is just stupid ridiculous?

 

[Princeps]

nevermind...

 

[Archbob]

And, Japan has universal healthcare for example. So they don't need to demand it form their employers.

We're talking about Toyota's American plants.

 

[sonorakitch]

If they don't have unions, then that's why their cars are so cheap, they aren't paying their workers enough.

Well, they are reacting to labor market forces. Obviously people are willing to work for a said wage in the Toyota, VW, and Honda plants in the south.

I remember reading an article in the Economist some years ago that actually claimed productivity levels were higher in the non-union plants, and the labor job satisfaction levels were much higher too. Granted that "newspaper" is quite opposed to unionization.

~Chris

 

[Princeps]

We're talking about Toyota's American plants.

ok


..----

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Toyota's workers actually made more than GM's workers on average last year.

I believe you, but I would appreciate citation of this sort of thing, for academics' sake.

Unions are a lot of litigation and red tape and their random strikes cost companies millions. Plus the healthcare cost they strike for is just stupid ridiculous?

They are a necessary stop-gap to capitalists, and they protect the rights of workers. That corporations find that annoying is fine with me. Granted, it may make our cars cost more, but the alternative, them costing less, it to the detriment of the myriad workers who make them.

Toyota, from what I understand, treated its workers better to begin with. So unions weren't so urgently necessary.

And, Japan has universal healthcare for example. So they don't need to demand it form their employers.

That would explain a lot, actually.

 

[Archbob]

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/default.aspx?type=art&id=80833

Check that out. I think thats the average, but I think UAW assembly line workers make more than their counterparts though.

Although $24/hr isn't shappy when you are just turning bolts.

 

[Cutlass]

Fine, you and I both open lemonade stands and sell lemonade for $2/cup.
I pay my workers $5 an hour, you pay your workers $10 an hour. Our workers do THE EXACT SAME THING. You are making a loss, I make profits, what is so damn hard to understand there?

Its not like unionized workers are any more efficient than Japanese workers, they just demand more(especially in the ways of benefits).

Yes, management COULD in theory tell them to worker harder -- but wait, then the UAW would just strike, so thats not really an option.

What good management should do is slowly start to train un-unionized workers and give the middle finger to the UAW. Their workers want more? Fine then, just fire them and hire strike-breakers. There are plenty of people who are skilled and qualified to turn bolts and they'd be willing to do it at $20/HR.

Healthcare costs are insane for any company, but unionized workers simply demand more benefits. Unreasonable benefits most of the time.

I agree, management should be given power. They should have power just to fire workers if they are not happy with the compensation. They should not be forced to give in by laws or litigation.

They should be able to say "You don't like it here, well tough, go find another job turning bolts that pays you $25/hr".

They should be able to do this without having to face a dozen class-action lawsuits.

Have you ever had a job? Doing anything at all?

 

[Cutlass]

Well, they are reacting to labor market forces. Obviously people are willing to work for a said wage in the Toyota, VW, and Honda plants in the south.

I remember reading an article in the Economist some years ago that actually claimed productivity levels were higher in the non-union plants, and the labor job satisfaction levels were much higher too. Granted that "newspaper" is quite opposed to unionization.

~Chris

And that is a management choice. Exactly as I keep trying to tell you.

 

[Merkinball]

Have you ever had a job? Doing anything at all?

I'm willing to bet, more and more every day at that, that you've never really had a job doing anything at all.

I currently work in a government operated union dominated healthcare facility. He pretty much sums it up nice.

 

[Archbob]

Yes, I worked in a medical company for a year and a half and I quit that job to start my own business as I am full-time self-employed right now.

Guess what? The medical company I worked for didn't have unions, and it was a great place to work. Union arguing for higher wages would have ruined it.

I do hire flash programmers now to produce things for me and I work on the condition of "If you don't like what I'm willing to pay, then go find another project". Guess what? It works and I'm making a profit. But if I had to deal with someone like a union of flash developers, I'd just be screwed.

Now, where have you worked?

 

[Cutlass]

A number of places. Not a one of them where I had any say what my productivity would be other than if I was willing to give it an honest effort or not. And the management decides that as well in who they chose to hire and how they chose to motivate them. So in a real business, literally every decision made concerning the productivity of the work force is made by management.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

McCain always does, though. When it's just questions, McCain stumbles too. You haven't seen them much, have you???

That isn't true. He uses them sometimes, but strongly dislikes them. That is mostly because he knows he isn't good at giving speeches while reading them. I'm not saying he is a great speaker without them, but he is a little better.

His VP is a better speaker (though probably not in Obama's league), and never uses either (well, at least not so far). Huckabee is a very good speaker and never uses them.

 

[sonorakitch]

And that is a management choice. Exactly as I keep trying to tell you.

And what I keep trying to tell you is that when management has a choice, everybody is better off.

Management doesn't exactly have a choice when every automobile worker in the rust belt is beholden to union bosses. Hands are tied really. They cannot possible function properly with the threat of collective strike.

~Chris

 

[sonorakitch]

Yes, I worked in a medical company for a year and a half and I quit that job to start my own business as I am full-time self-employed right now.

Good for you FAL. There is nothing more rewarding than operating your own business and the self-driven decisive determination is something to pat yourself on the back for.

~Chris

 

[RulerOfDaPeople]

I have one remaining reflection from Obama's speech... for someone saying the election was all about us, he sure did say "I will" an aweful lot. And they were pretty vague "I will's" at that. (Nothing about how he will.)

PS: FAL, I second Chris' compliment. Way to go man! I wish you much success!

 

[Cutlass]

And what I keep trying to tell you is that when management has a choice, everybody is better off.

Management doesn't exactly have a choice when every automobile worker in the rust belt is beholden to union bosses. Hands are tied really. They cannot possible function properly with the threat of collective strike.

~Chris

But the management created that system in the first place. When management treats labor badly, labor responds in kind. When that has been going on for decades, attitudes harden and people stick to established patterns.

If management needs to organize labor better, it has to treat labor better.

All of the decisions rest with management.