The Speech

[JollyRoger]

It just sounds like more excuse making for poor capitalists.

 

[JollyRoger]

Which don't have unions.

Because they better manage their labor relations.

 

[luiz]

It is selling an unprofitable product mix for one thing. It has mismanaged its labor costs for another. Perhaps they need to poach some managers from Japan.

They already did. GM has copied alot of management and production techniques from Toyota, after the NUUMI experience. Labor costs are the one thing that destroyed GM, even though other factors certainly played a role as well.

At the end of the day management is obviously to blame, but is so are the unions for pushing a destructive policy that will cost the jobs of the people they are supposed to represent. As I said, it is easy for us to argue that they should have moved elsewhere, but it is very hard dealing with the UAW.

 

[sonorakitch]

Because they better manage their labor relations.

It's the WalMart effect. Foreign auto manufacturers don't allow unions and they don't need them because there are enough people who are willing to put a driveshaft on a car for $24/hr.

GM and the rest are already infested. Incurable illness really.

~Chris

 

[Mr. Keith]

They are also full of political connections and were capable of dealing a devastating blow to several major corporations.

AND THE BIG THREE HAVE NO POLITICAL CONNECTIONS???

Am I going crazy here?

You people think the UAW is so all powerful that the Big Three could not chip away at its power over a period of 20 or 30 years?

Hell, the UAW is setting its sights too low. Why not take over the entire country, since they are so powerful.

 

[I'm Cleo!]

Here's a theory:

The management of the Big Three made terrible decisions (no one really debates that, right?), and now that the companies are in dire straits, labor won't renegotiate the contracts they had which would allow the companies to try to stay competitive. Is that about right?

Cleo

 

[Cutlass]

Here's a theory:

The management of the Big Three made terrible decisions (no one really debates that, right?), and now that the companies are in dire straits, labor won't renegotiate the contracts they had which would allow the companies to try to stay competitive. Is that about right?

Cleo

UAW Losing Pay Edge: Foreign Automakers' Bonuses Boost Wages in U.S. Plants as Detroit Car Companies Struggle
http://www.aftermarketnews.com/default.aspx?type=art&id=80833

U.S. Automaker Profit Woes Attributed to Health Care Costs
http://www.unitedprofessionals.org/...-profit-woes-attributed-to-health-care-costs/

It doesn't take much googling to get the story. The union is already giving back. The biggest difference is the health care costs. Because the management is too incompetent to control health care costs.

Universal health car would cut the Big 3's health care costs in half and equalize the labor costs between US and Japanese companies.

 

[Cutlass]

Well, let the American automakers die, we'll see who those idiots at UAW strike to when there's only Japanese car companies left who don't have unionized workers.

Cutlass, what do you not get?

Japanese auto manufacturers pay their workers $15/hr.
American auto manufacturer pay their workers $25/hr

The workers do the EXACT SAME THING

Do you see why they might have a competitive advantage?

What do you not get? The productivity matters more. Productivity is 100% under control of management.

 

[Cutlass]

Let me repeat it for you: untill very recently, GM had a bigger revenue than Toyota. It still has a bigger revenue than Honda, or Mitsubishi. Those companies manage to have profits, GM doesn't.

Why oh why? You see, to make a profit just selling cars isn't good enough. You can sell 10 times more cars than all japanese companies combined, but if you don't have a per car profit you won't have a total profit, as bizarre as that may sound to you.

If it seems so obvious to you, why are you incapable of understanding it? It's what I have been saying all along and you have refused to believe it. You are arguing that you are exactly as commie as your avy.

 

[Cutlass]

That really won't help Jolly, you can't pay your workers 30,40,or 50 percent more than your competitor and still expect to be competitive. The wages need to come down for anything to work at all.

Either that or Obama will raise import taxes so high that Japanese costs will be equal to American ones. But then I could see other countries doing that in retribution so it'd be a stupid idea.

Yes you can. It happens every single day. It is the norm, not the exception.

 

[luiz]

If it seems so obvious to you, why are you incapable of understanding it? It's what I have been saying all along and you have refused to believe it. You are arguing that you are exactly as commie as your avy.

What's not to understand? Equal revenues. One has a profit, the other has losses. The only explanation is costs. Now which costs are dramatically different between GM and Toyota? Labor costs. Why are labor costs so higher for GM? Mad and powerful unions.

It's pretty obvious and undisputed.

 

[Princeps]

They already did. GM has copied alot of management and production techniques from Toyota, after the NUUMI experience. Labor costs are the one thing that destroyed GM, even though other factors certainly played a role as well.

Lol, GM was destroyed by many things, the least of which is labour unionization. Mainly bad management, poor marketing, health care costs and so forth.

 

[Archbob]

Yes you can. It happens every single day. It is the norm, not the exception.

Fine, you and I both open lemonade stands and sell lemonade for $2/cup.
I pay my workers $5 an hour, you pay your workers $10 an hour. Our workers do THE EXACT SAME THING. You are making a loss, I make profits, what is so damn hard to understand there?

Its not like unionized workers are any more efficient than Japanese workers, they just demand more(especially in the ways of benefits).

Yes, management COULD in theory tell them to worker harder -- but wait, then the UAW would just strike, so thats not really an option.

What good management should do is slowly start to train un-unionized workers and give the middle finger to the UAW. Their workers want more? Fine then, just fire them and hire strike-breakers. There are plenty of people who are skilled and qualified to turn bolts and they'd be willing to do it at $20/HR.

Healthcare costs are insane for any company, but unionized workers simply demand more benefits. Unreasonable benefits most of the time.

I agree, management should be given power. They should have power just to fire workers if they are not happy with the compensation. They should not be forced to give in by laws or litigation.

They should be able to say "You don't like it here, well tough, go find another job turning bolts that pays you $25/hr".

They should be able to do this without having to face a dozen class-action lawsuits.

 

[JollyRoger]

Fine, you and I both open lemonade stands and sell lemonade for $2/cup.

I pay my workers $5 an hour, you pay your workers $10 an hour. Our workers do THE EXACT SAME THING. You are making a loss, I make profits, what is so damn hard to understand there?

You're basically taking such things as product mix and productivity out of the equation. If my $10 dollar hour employee is making a better cup of lemonade and selling more cups per hour or if I am doing a better job at marketing my lemonade or being more efficient on overhead, I could be potentially be more profitable that the guy paying his employees $5 an hour.

 

[Archbob]

You're basically taking such things as product mix and productivity out of the equation. If my $10 dollar hour employee is making a better cup of lemonade and selling more cups per hour or if I am doing a better job at marketing my lemonade or being more efficient on overhead, I could be potentially be more profitable that the guy paying his employees $5 an hour.

True, but you realize that a lot of American Cars and Japanese cars are produced in the same factories with the same parts and the same equipment.

And anyways, unfortunately for GM, they don't make better cars so that point is moot.

In my example I also stated that the two employees were doing the exact same thing. I mean there's really only one way to turn bolts. I've turned bolts before and there isn't that much to it(yeah I may be simplfying the job, but the point is most of those jobs aren't that hard).

 

[JollyRoger]

True, but you realize that a lot of American Cars and Japanese cars are produced in the same factories with the same parts and the same equipment.

And anyways, unfortunately for GM, they don't make better cars so that point is moot.

In my example I also stated that the two employees were doing the exact same thing. I mean there's really only one way to turn bolts. I've turned bolts before and there isn't that much to it(yeah I may be simplfying the job, but the point is most of those jobs aren't that hard).

Actually, turning bolts has changed over the years due to technology.

 

[Archbob]

Actually, turning bolts has changed over the years due to technology.

Why do they need people to turn them if they can just do it with robots?

 

[JollyRoger]

Why do they need people to turn them if they can just do it with robots?

Someone needs to take care of the robots. In reality, the American car manufacturers could very well freeze the unions and transition to heavier reliance on robotic technology over time if they really wanted to. Going to have to be able to stomach something more severe than a 3 day strike to do it though.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

If Obama intends to pursue all of that, he just won my vote.

Indeed. I was reserving my decision until I finally heard him lay down what he wanted to do. I will be paying much attention to the debates in the coming weeks (as we all will, I'm sure), but if the election were tommorow he'd have my vote.

 

[Archbob]

Someone needs to take care of the robots. In reality, the American car manufacturers could very well freeze the unions and transition to heavier reliance on robotic technology over time if they really wanted to. Going to have to be able to stomach something more severe than a 3 day strike to do it though.

They should soon because I bet the Japanese are going to do it.

They can't screw themselves over forever just to please unions.


About Obama:

Its not about what he promises, its about what I think he can deliver, which for right now is nothing.