The Manhattan Project must pertain to the builder/s only

[Bhruic]

I figure if you build it, you should get a:

"+1 Somebody set up us the bomb."

relationships bonus with everyone.

Bh

 

[Tanathos]

I like the "3 free bombs" suggestion.

 

[mgbx4]

I like the Idea of a UN resolution where no one can research the atomic bombs =)p but u can also still do it but the UN will condeem u as an threat to Humankind

 

[gunter]

I still wonder why Firaxis did that.

Logically it doesn't make sense indeed. Considering the issue from a gameplay point of view..NEITHER.

It seems only the usual routine designed to give annoyance and boycott the human player when it has a chance to take an unpredicted advantage the difficulty level isn't ready to deal with.

 

[Dominico]

Its because once you have the technology bombs are not that hard to make. You need the materials, the science and the funding. Just as you do ingame.

Of course the first time someone comes up with the idea it is complicated, but once the idea is there everyone can come to the conclusion. You can get info on how to make nukes on the net, but of course you cannot make them!!

As others have pointed out, its a pandora box. You have unleashed the idea of nukes. Everyone who wants one still has to have the resources and technology.

I think its perfect as it is and makes you think twice about creating this monster, just as the Guys and governments who made it in the first place thought twice about it.

I love the way it works ingame. In its creation and use causing global warming. I think people that have a problem with it want a consequence free game, just as some people hate the penalty for not running emancipation etc.

Each to his own!

 

[gunter]

Maybe that's the reason I don't play spiritual of peaceful traits.....I do not tolerate someone else taking advantage FOR FREE of my efforts,especially if they took so many fatigue, money and hammers to realize.

Even Newton for instance understood the apple falling gravity concept but that wasn't a good reason to clone him a dozen times FOR FREE in order every country can claim to have had Newton among their " home made " geniuses.

My idea : everyone who has FOR FREE the Mahattan Project invented by me had as well also a FREE nuclear bomb, dropped on his head of course


In this way THEY have to think twice before acting

 

[troytheface]

Perhaps its just been experience specific to me- but when i get the Manhatten i also build/have nukes way afor anyone else -

perhaps they tested having it give a free bomb and it was overpowered, inconsequential, or the AI would beeline for it and take the fun away from the player getting it.

at any rate as stated above - the end result of building the Manhatten is that you do get 3 or more nukes before the AI (again personal experience)

 

[Lord_Zath]

Actually a better way would be to require that everyone build the project, but for every instance where the project is built, te next project is lowered in cost by a 1/3 or more depending on map size.

I really like this idea. Makes more sense and fits well in today's world.

Iran can't make nukes just because the US did the Manhattan Project some 60 years ago. They had to develop their own project.

 

[GIO888]

You need Fission and Rocketry to build Nukes. If you get them first, the AI is way behind still by the time you build the MP and actual ICBM's.

I used to like it in days of old when getting Nukes made you the Big Dog and all the AI's instantly LIKED you better. With Diplomacy and Espionage so well developed in the current game, it would make getting the MP first more sense.

Remember "My words are backed by Nuclear Weapons!" Happy Days!

One free ICBM would suffice!

 

[Kelvenor]

I like what Lord Zath said referencing Auren:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auren
Actually a better way would be to require that everyone build the project, but for every instance where the project is built, te next project is lowered in cost by a 1/3 or more depending on map size.

I really like this idea. Makes more sense and fits well in today's world.

Iran can't make nukes just because the US did the Manhattan Project some 60 years ago. They had to develop their own project.

A national project would make more senses...you need to test the technology and have practice trial in order to perfect it. I see this in line with the Apollo project...Both US and USSR had to have national commitments for the space race to the moon. Now China has to undergo the same process for its ambitions to go to the Moon....possibly Mars

Posted by GIDS888:
Quote:
You need Fission and Rocketry to build Nukes. If you get them first, the AI is way behind still by the time you build the MP and actual ICBM's.

I used to like it in days of old when getting Nukes made you the Big Dog and all the AI's instantly LIKED you better. With Diplomacy and Espionage so well developed in the current game, it would make getting the MP first more sense.

Remember "My words are backed by Nuclear Weapons!" Happy Days!

One free ICBM would suffice!

I agree with the Diplomatic impact of possessing Nuclear Weapons...but like the Apollo program you still need to build the space ship so no free nuke

 

[bardolph]

I have no problem with the current implementation: if you don't want others to benefit from your Manhattan Project, Don't Build It! Then, you can just wait for someone else to build it for you, and be as smug as you want that they helped you get nukes.

 

[Duuk]

Actually a better way would be to require that everyone build the project, but for every instance where the project is built, te next project is lowered in cost by a 1/3 or more depending on map size.

This, to me, would be a perfect implementation.

 

[Henry V]

A while back, on Civ 2 or 3, I was actually on the other end of this scenerio when I was going about my game and I heard the boom of another civilization completing the Manhattan Project first. I had all other prerequisites so I immediately started building the nukes. Pretty soon it was an all out nuclear war with bombs being dropped numerous times each round. It decimated the land and pretty much wiped out everyone.
I think it's fine the way it is now. It should be a project that requires some real decision making - both militaristic and philosophical.

 

[Quagga]

The interesting thing about the bomb (to me anyway) is that it's not the concept of fission that is the mind-bogglingly difficult thing. It's refining the uranium isotope (or creating plutonium) that's the trick. This requires learning how to build such a facility, making the parts that form the facility, then actually performing the refining process (which takes time). This is the Manhattan Project, which does become somewhat easier for the 2nd, 3rd, etc. civ, but it is still difficult no matter how many civs accomplish it.

Given that line of thinking, I agree with the idea that each civ should have their own Manhattan Project (i.e., a national wonder).

 

[King Flevance]

Its because once you have the technology bombs are not that hard to make. You need the materials, the science and the funding. Just as you do ingame.

Of course the first time someone comes up with the idea it is complicated, but once the idea is there everyone can come to the conclusion. You can get info on how to make nukes on the net, but of course you cannot make them!!

As others have pointed out, its a pandora box. You have unleashed the idea of nukes. Everyone who wants one still has to have the resources and technology.

This is a perfect reason why the internet should allow access to the bonus it gives to everyone more than nukes. Build internet, everyone with the computers tech gains the any techs from then on that 2 or more other civs have.

But for nukes, and the manhattan project I see it much like the apollo program. The Manhattan project as a national wonder doesn't represent that a civ went to remote islands and watched their bomb explode. It represent creating the facilities needed to build nukes throughout your empire.

Much like the Apollo Program doesn't give every civ space flight specialists and so forth, the Manhattan Project does not make sense to grant them everything they need except a tech and uranium to build nukes. To me, the Manhattan Project represent 'building' all those other "resources" needed for such a feat. Making facilities for building nukes, making procedure, Etc.

Although coming from a purely gamepoint perspective, you invest 4500 hammers into and recieve no personal benefit whatsoever. Heck actually everyone else is who gets the personal modifiers as they didn't have to waste 4500 hammers AND they get to start reaping the rewards on the inter-turn. Whereas you have to wait for it to come all the way back to you before you can start building anything. But the large investment you put into such a project doesn't even give you any bonus. And IMO actually makes you the "sucker".

 

[r_rolo1]

The game programmers had a really strong bias against nukes ( philosophical point of view, not gameplay reasons ) when making the game....

Basically :

- To build nukes you have to make a 4500 wonder that allows everyone ( ) with the Fission tech to build nukes ( and even before you do, like King Flevance noted ). So, you buy a nice chance of being nuked for 4500 .... Not a good deal IMHO
-AI normally are quite reluctant of buiding Manhattan ( it looks that they are not as stupid as they look sometimes.... ) .The only times I saw a AI building Manhattan was in games were a AI was determined in getting a Dom win.
- In spite of not being as automatic as it was in pre-BtS , it is quite hard to avoid the UN nuke ban unless you control the UN or if the world is boiling in wars. This makes manhathan the shortest lived wonder in Civ IV in most games ( in this regard reminds me the Civ III carrack.... )
- Nukes if used create a global warming effect that transforms all in desert, but does not melt the tundra permafrost or the Ice caps ( if they wanted GW as something remotely useful, with not transform land tiles in water, like I seen suggested in another thread and that only required a small XML change? It would make much more sense )

 

[Carver]

Its because once you have the technology bombs are not that hard to make. You need the materials, the science and the funding. Just as you do ingame.

Of course the first time someone comes up with the idea it is complicated, but once the idea is there everyone can come to the conclusion. You can get info on how to make nukes on the net, but of course you cannot make them!!

As others have pointed out, its a pandora box. You have unleashed the idea of nukes. Everyone who wants one still has to have the resources and technology.

I think its perfect as it is and makes you think twice about creating this monster, just as the Guys and governments who made it in the first place thought twice about it.

I love the way it works ingame. In its creation and use causing global warming. I think people that have a problem with it want a consequence free game, just as some people hate the penalty for not running emancipation etc.

Each to his own!

I agree with Dominico. The first nation to build nukes has a lot more work to do than later nations. But I also think the idea about enhanced nuke production (+25% or so) to the Man Proj builder is a worthy idea. Also, MP should give the builder at least 1 free nuke. That's how you know your efforts have been successful - when you have a functioning weapon (even if it's not live tested).

 

[Dominico]

I really like this idea. Makes more sense and fits well in today's world.

Iran can't make nukes just because the US did the Manhattan Project some 60 years ago. They had to develop their own project.

Irans reason for not being able to make nukes is not having the materials (ie uranium in game) They have been given it lately by whoever and now they have the technology. Gamewise they are actually at the point of making the nukes. They just are slow hammer wise, and most likely dont have rocketry (their rockets can only carry nukes about to Isreal).

I think the game mirrors this brilliantly. They are not having to go through the major brainstorming of all those original scientists of italy and Europe who fled to america and created the bomb (the manhatten project) they are just struggling with the tech/building part. The manhatten project was not making bombs, it was creating the idea! (and exploding that first bomb, which is the funky animation you get in game )

 

[Joe Harker]

But on the other hand there is a big difference between building "the bomb" for the first time and just building bombs after someone else has proven it works and went and done it already.

Although in some ways that is true (you know it can be done and possible some of the technical details), all the countries that have now got nuclear bombs had costly programs to try and build an A-Bomb/H-Bomb, so it is more accuarte to depict the building of the A-Bomb as a national project

 

[keshik22]

From a historical point of view it makes a lot more sense to have it as a national wonder. After all, the original Manhattan Project was in 1945, yet 61 years later there are only 8-9 nuclear countries.
Maybe what the developers were worried about was the player beelining to Manhattan Project, building some nukes and nuking the AIs that are trying to build their own Manhattan project, thus maintaining his nuclear monopoly?