The many questions-not-worth-their-own-thread question thread XVIII

[Cutlass]

Surprisingly, simple cost

I don't think you've got it.

Except from my understanding steel cased ammunition is actually cheaper, but the cases cannot be reused.

From FP's link, brass costs as much as 2 1/2 times what steel costs. But for some uses, the ease of machining and the price regained from recycling offset the difference. However with shell casings the machining costs isn't going to be high, because it's mass stamped. And the recycling doesn't hold, because an awful lot of it is military ammo, and that brass will not be recycled, because it is lost in use.

 

[Farm Boy]

If we assume both of the above points are true you are still left with the fact that brass will store better(less corrosion) and it will be easier on the firearm itself during use.

 

[Flying Pig]

From FP's link, brass costs as much as 2 1/2 times what steel costs. But for some uses, the ease of machining and the price regained from recycling offset the difference. However with shell casings the machining costs isn't going to be high, because it's mass stamped. And the recycling doesn't hold, because an awful lot of it is military ammo, and that brass will not be recycled, because it is lost in use.

Actually the vast majority of the brass fired in training (and in some cases in combat) is recycled - to the tune of pretty much every single round.

 

[Cutlass]

Actually the vast majority of the brass fired in training (and in some cases in combat) is recycled - to the tune of pretty much every single round.

Yes, but that's just training. Which, in peacetime may be the largest number of rounds, including civilian. But once in a war zone, what gets policed up? Not very much I'd wager. At fixed bases and aboard ship it's just in the way. On the battlefield it's scattered and the soldiers aren't sticking around to collect it. I've heard that in WWII, even the US had to really struggle to keep up with the brass demand. And, you know, steel in many ways recycles even easier than brass, because you can use a magnet to pick it up in mass. So I'm thinking there has to be another answer. Perhaps Farm Boy is right in that it's a corrosion issue. A small bit of corrosion where the casing meets the round could ruin your whole day.

 

[Flying Pig]

Yes, but that's just training. Which, in peacetime may be the largest number of rounds, including civilian. But once in a war zone, what gets policed up? Not very much I'd wager. At fixed bases and aboard ship it's just in the way. On the battlefield it's scattered and the soldiers aren't sticking around to collect it. I've heard that in WWII, even the US had to really struggle to keep up with the brass demand. And, you know, steel in many ways recycles even easier than brass, because you can use a magnet to pick it up in mass. So I'm thinking there has to be another answer. Perhaps Farm Boy is right in that it's a corrosion issue. A small bit of corrosion where the casing meets the round could ruin your whole day.

Wouldn't steel also be heavier? The thing is you need to realise what the proportions are - even nowadays we're still firing at least as many rounds at home, in Germany, in Kenya and in Canada as we are in Afghanistan, and even in Afghanistan a lot of brass is picked up - particularly when fighting on 'home turf' out of PBs and the like.

 

[Chukchi Husky]

Why is Shakespeare the most remembered of all the playwrights?

 

[say1988]

Wouldn't steel also be heavier?

A quick Google shows Brass has a density of abot 8500-8750 kg/cubic metre, while steel is about 7500-8000. Of course both vary depending on the specific alloys used. but unless the steel requires thicker casings or the casings, then it should be lighter. Probably negligable on a per round basis, but if you are carrying a couple hundred rounds it would add up.

An easy test would be to go to a store and pick up a box of each and see what weighs more.

 

[Farm Boy]

A quick An easy test would be to go to a store and pick up a box of each and see what weighs more.

Not that easy for some folks outside the US. Not always that easy to find a box of shells with steel casings. I can't recall if I have seen steel-cased shells stocked as a matter of course. You might have to order them in.

 

[Dreadnought]

Got into a debate about an economic phrase, whether it is Say's Law or not:

"More exports help the economy grow because they typically boost factory production, which can fuel more hiring and lead to greater consumer spending."

So, is the idea that "exports ---> boost factory production ---> fuel more hiring & greater consumer spending" an example of Say's Law?

 

[Flying Pig]

Yes, in a way - Say's law implies that rational people don't hoard money, which is required to make the jump from point 2 to point 3.

 

[Cutlass]

Wouldn't steel also be heavier? The thing is you need to realise what the proportions are - even nowadays we're still firing at least as many rounds at home, in Germany, in Kenya and in Canada as we are in Afghanistan, and even in Afghanistan a lot of brass is picked up - particularly when fighting on 'home turf' out of PBs and the like.

But brass was standardized for casing use long before those levels of training became common. How much ammo did the US Army use in training before WWII? A better question would be What Army? So I can't imagine the recycling was much of an issue before WWII in the minds of military planners or ammo manufacturers.

 

[Flying Pig]

That's actually been going through my head thinking about this one. The things is that brass has always been the material of choice and I don't think anyone's ever seriously considered using anything else. I consulted Wikipedia and found the following:

Brass is a commonly used case material. It is resistant to corrosion, the case head can be drawn and work hardened to make useful cases for modern metallic cartridges working at relatively high pressure, and the neck and body portion are easily annealed to make the case ductile enough to allow reforming so that it can be reloaded many times.

Some "plinking" ammunition, as well as some military ammunition (mainly from the former Soviet Union and China) is made with steel cases because steel is less expensive than brass. It is not feasible to reuse steel cases and these rapidly deteriorate in the environment, through rusting. As military forces typically consider small arms cartridge cases to be a disposable, one-time-use, devices these limitations are inconsequential for those applications. However, case weight (mass) affects how much ammunition a soldier can carry, so the lighter steel cases do have a military advantage; conversely, steel is more susceptible to contamination and damage so all such cases are varnished or otherwise sealed against the elements but that seal is relatively fragile and such ammunition must be handled more carefully from the time of manufacture until use.

One downside caused by the increased strength of steel in the neck of these cases (compared to the annealed neck of a brass case) is that propellant gas can blow back past the neck and into the chamber. Constituents of these gases condense on the (relatively cold) chamber wall. This solid propellant residue can make extraction of fired cases difficult. This is less of a problem for guns of the former Warsaw Pact nations, which were designed with much larger chamber tolerances than NATO guns are.

 

[Cutlass]

Got into a debate about an economic phrase, whether it is Say's Law or not:

"More exports help the economy grow because they typically boost factory production, which can fuel more hiring and lead to greater consumer spending."

So, is the idea that "exports ---> boost factory production ---> fuel more hiring & greater consumer spending" an example of Say's Law?

To go as simple as possible, Say's Law says that "supply creates its own demand". To expand a bit, the act of supplying goods and services generates economic activity and cash flows which result in the ability to purchase all that is produced.

So I would not cite your example as an example of Say's Law.

 

[Cutlass]

That's actually been going through my head thinking about this one. The things is that brass has always been the material of choice and I don't think anyone's ever seriously considered using anything else. I consulted Wikipedia and found the following:

So we can summarize 1) corrosion resistance, as Farm Boy was saying, 2) less wear to the gun, 3) less gas getting past the cartridge because the softer brass deforms to restrict that, 4) cleaner gun less likely to get jammed up, 5) has characteristics that make it more rugged for handling in the field.

I guess that answers my question well enough.

 

[timtofly]

Why is Shakespeare the most remembered of all the playwrights?

Evolution? Survival of the most accepted?

 

[NickyJ]

Why is Shakespeare the most remembered of all the playwrights?

Evolution? Survival of the most accepted?

I'd have to say that probably is it. I read some of his plays, and the following quote best describes my thoughs:

It’s a bunch of English fruits in tights running around going, "blah-blah, blah-blah, blah-blah." Give me a break.

 

[GamezRule]

I'd have to say that probably is it. I read some of his plays, and the following quote best describes my thoughs:

Culture isn't your thing.

 

[Flying Pig]

I'd have to say that probably is it. I read some of his plays, and the following quote best describes my thoughs:

Go and see them performed. Macbeth happens to be my favorite play, ever, but you wouldn't get that just from reading it. Several of them have been updated into modern settings (Baz Luhrmann did this with Romeo and Juliet, as have many others with plays such as King Lear), and some have been overhauled altogether (the BBC did Macbeth set in a Scottish kitchen, with the Wyrd Sisters replaced by a hilarious trio of bin-men).

 

[NickyJ]

Culture isn't your thing.

If those books are considered culture, then I strongly agree with you.

Go and see them performed. Macbeth happens to be my favorite play, ever, but you wouldn't get that just from reading it. Several of them have been updated into modern settings (Baz Luhrmann did this with Romeo and Juliet, as have many others with plays such as King Lear), and some have been overhauled altogether (the BBC did Macbeth set in a Scottish kitchen, with the Wyrd Sisters replaced by a hilarious trio of bin-men).

I suppose they are better when acted. I did see Macbeth and Hamlet shown on PBS, but they were butchered through modernization. (I'm sorry, but Hamlet speaking to Yorick's skull with a backhoe in the background is painful to watch.)

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Why is Shakespeare the most remembered of all the playwrights?

I would say his greatest talent was that his best works are defined by their insights into the workings of the human mind . They are like brilliant psychology manuals .

500 odd years later , humans pretty much think the same way so his work stands the test of time .

I feel the same way about Tolstoy . "Wow , that's so true , people do think and act that way" is often my reaction to their stuff