The Mole: S&T's First Game Show!

[Dhoomstriker]

Well, you wouldn't have seen the Fish had you not sent the Warrior to the SE, which didn't even make it into my typed recommendation, so no worries. Unless, of course, it means that you are the Mole! Muahahahaaaaa!

 

[Mosher]

Of... of course I'm not the mole.

 

[mayor]

I believe you... you can't be the mole.....

 

[Mosher]

Who's up? Hoplite?

 

[Red_Spy]

yep.avi

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, so we did start building a Fast Worker. Well, there isn't much that a Fast Worker can really do right now, is there*? So, maybe we should just pause building the Fast Worker and first build a Work Boat by working the PHFor square, getting us 4 Hammers per turn.

Once a Clam has been netted, we can go back to working on the Fast Worker, followed probably by more Work Boats.


* Note that I am not complaining--putting some Hammers into a Fast Worker was a really good idea, but we can certainly delay completing it until after we've built our first Work Boat.

 

[Mosher]

We could time it so that the fast worker comes out at the same time as bronze working, and then chop out 3 work boats quickly. Since fast workers can move into a forest and start chopping on the same turn, we could get 3 work boats out three(?) turns faster than normal.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Shall we aim to save some Forests in the hopes of them causing other Forests to grow or regrow, or will we be clear-cutting?

If we're goign to selectively Chop Forests, then I could probably put signs on the map when it is my turnset to say which Forests should not be Chopped (because they would be used to help regrow other Forests).

 

[Mosher]

I think we should chop three forests, to get those work boats ASAP - or capital will be awful until we get all of our clams up and running, I think. I would also like to burn two forests on a settler, and one on our 2nd worker (if there is enough left). The rest can be left unless we want to chop out Stonehenge or the Oracle (though it may be too late at this point, since we've gone for worker techs first).


We chose India because the Fast Worker allows us to make a quick start, and we should use them such.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We are Organized, so we're probably better off building additional Cities instead of trying to build a whole pile of Wonders.

Organized does mean cheap Lighthouses, which could give us a leg up on The Great Lighthouse. Depending upon the map's layout, we may want to try for that Wonder, seeing as how our capital is Coastal.


We might also prefer to build Chariots or Axemen instead of a World Wonder.


EDIT: Spoiler removed.

 

[Mosher]

Do you really trust no one to look in the spoiler?

I wasn't suggesting we build wonders, I was just saying that if we wanted to, we could use the fast workers to our advantage and make them. The Great Lighthouse won't be a terribly important, since we're on a Pangea map and we'll likely not build a lot of coastal cities.

With our food-rich capital, going for Caste System (and cheap courthouses!) would be prudent. Maybe, after we get worker techs we should go writing -> alphabet -> CoL -> meditation -> priesthood -> monarchy. We could potentially get Confucianism, since we've been cut off from the three early religions. Spread that religion around a bit, makes for a good happiness boost, and the shrine income will be important if we decide to go for a large empire.


EDIT - Have you noticed that when we talk to eachother in threads, it usually ends up in a long strategy discussion?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Well, Code of Laws requires one of Priesthood or Currency as a pre-requisite tech. Usually, you won't found Confucianism if you go the Currency route.

So, we might as well take the Priesthood route and then optionally build The Oracle, depending upon what the Hammer situation is like.


Founding zero Religions (intentionally) can also be a strategy, as it means that you'll likely get multiple AI Religions spreading to you. Having multiple AI Religions allows you to "pick a side" in an AI-AI conflict a little bit better.


Part of the downside of getting cheap Courthouses is that you don't really need them... the Organized Trait already means that you can delay building Courthouses, since Maintenance Costs are already reduced by default.



Do we always plan to play in order or is there going to be the possibility of playing out of order should someone be unavailable for a while? As long as everyone plays once and then we vote, the playing order doesn't matter too much, right?

 

[Mosher]

I don't think it matters a terrible lot, but we should wait for Yoshi to say. And yeah, I forgot about that pre-reqs for CoL; I think it would be wisest for us to go, after worker techs + sailing(?), to go meditation -> priesthood -> code of laws -> monarchy.

I think a wise overall tech path would be Finish BW -> revolt to slavery -> animal husbandry -> pottery(optional, if you guys feel comftorable running a specialist economy)-> wheel -> meditation -> priesthood -> Code of Laws -> monarchy

We can hold off on revolting to Caste System until we have some strong infrastructure and several (preferably six?) cities.


EDIT - I also want to tack on - are we going to place farms at our capital, or cottage cheese it? The land isn't very well suited to cottage cheese, but we have a lake, and we could make a few farms.

Here's one plan we could use for worker chops. The two black arrows is where a road should be eventually, when we get the wheel.

Spoiler :

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Alt + Print Screen is your friend (you won't get your Windows' desktop in the image when you paste your screenshot into MS Paint or whatever image editing program you use).

Forest Chopping Strategy (spoilered for those who don't want to learn new things)

Spoiler :

As for Forest Chopping, I prefer to Chop Grassland Forests over Plains Forests, since working a Plains Forest for 2 Hammers in a pinch is not too bad when you don't have a lot of Mines to work, and Farming a Plains square just makes it the equivalent of an unimproved Grassland Forest. Farming a Grassland square, however, gives a square that lets you grow your City a bit faster than working most other unimproved squares--so I count it as an improved square.

Also, you want to consider that Forests can only regrow horizontally or vertically, not diagonally. As such, if a Forest is surrounded by Forests on most sides of it, then it is a good candidate for Chopping. If you don't Chop it (what you might call "culling" the Forests), then Forest regrowth in the area sits at a stagnant level (i.e. little to no Forest regrowth is possible). For example, the Grassland Forest 1NW of our capital is surrounded by 3 Forests. It could be a good candidate to Chop, since right now, it cannot help a new Forest to grow, while it is also "blocking" the neighbouring Forests from causing growth/regrowth. However, if we Chopped that Grassland Forest (locatied 1NW of the capital), then we would actually ADD three chances per turn for a Forest to grow. When a Forest grows, it means getting free Hammers from a future Forest Chopping activity.

See more info on Forest Management and Maximizing Forest Regrowth by reading the linked message and the message that follows it.


A further consideration with the Forest Chopping and regrowth management is that if there IS a Strategic Resource (Copper, Horse, Iron, etc) 2N of our capital, then a Forest cannot grow onto that square. In that case, it might actually be better to Chop the Forests that are 1N of the capital and NW + N of the capital, but leave the Grassland Forest that is 1NW of the capital exactly where it is (i.e. don't Chop the 1NW Forest) so as to get 4 additional Forest regrowth chances while getting the Hammers from Chopping 2 Forests.


All of that said, Mosher's idea of sending the Worker towards the south to Chop a Forest there is a decent idea, since we don't need to keep ALL of the Plains Forest squares and moving there would put our Worker close to the Sheep, which is a great idea. Also, Mining the Plains Hills square after Pasturing the Sheep is a great idea, too.

After Mining the Plains Hills Forest, I'd probably say move 1N and Mine the Grassland Hills Forest, followed by moving 1NE and Chopping the Grassland Forest that is NW + N of the capital, then moving 1SE and Chopping the Grassland Forest that is 1N of the capital.

But, lots of valid possibilities for Worker movements exist and if Barb units show up, you often need to change your plans anyway.

Monarchy is usually better not to self-tech (only those who are interested in learning should open the spoiler tag)

Spoiler :

I am not a fan of self-teching Monarchy, since it is a non-Monopoly tech that many AIs will research. I.e. As soon as one AI learns it, they will be willing to trade it, while for most techs, they will keep a "monopoly" on the tech (i.e. refuse to trade it) until several other Civs also know the same tech. Since it is so easy to get in trade, why waste your Flasks researching it?

Further, every tech that you know causes the AIs to have a higher chance of self-teching the same tech and also causes them to be more willing to trade the same tech around, since its trading value will go down for each player (including you) that already knows the tech. This fact is particularly bad for Monarchy, since Monarchy is 1 tech away from the AIs using Longbowmen, the doom and gloom AI unit of the mid-game. If at all possible, you want to delay the AIs researching and trading-around Monarchy, because once they do, then they are only 1 step away from researching and trading-around the dreaded Feudalism tech.

 

[Mosher]

I normally go for monarchy relatively late, but with so much food (3 clams + sheep!), we'll be growing like weeds and hitting our happiness cap sooner than normal. I think that it would be prudent to research it, even if it makes the AI more likely to tech to feudalism, just so that we can get maximum specialist potential out of our capital.

However, I'm not very skilled with specialists/all of that other stuff, so I think it would be best to go with Dhoom's thoughts.

Edited chop map;

Spoiler :

I pressed alt+print screen and it didn't cut out the background...

The road is the same. The M represents mine, the 3 represents worker action 3.

Black dots are forests to leave alone.

This is just for the opening turns, so the other plains forests will probably eventually get chopped, also, but this is just to get us started.

Anyways, I'm out for the night.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I pressed alt+print screen and it didn't cut out the background...

Weird. Well, I use Windows XP and it works there. That key combination SHOULD capture the currently-active window and that window only

I normally go for monarchy relatively late, but with so much food (3 clams + sheep!), we'll be growing like weeds and hitting our happiness cap sooner than normal.

Sure, and that's fine. The point is to understand the tradeoffs, and once you understand them, then you can make decisions like this one.


More Forest talk

Spoiler :

Edited chop map;

I guess that I was a bit confusing. What I meant is that we should either:
- Chop the Forest 1N and Chop the Forest NW + N
OR
- Chop the Forests 1NW
but not both of these options.

The first option is better if there is a Strategic Resource 2N of the capital.

As to the exact order of Forest Chopping, it probably doesn't matter too much here, since we're just playing for fun and aren't trying for a perfect game.

If I were trying for a perfect game, then I would try and figure out exactly how many turns of Chopping we would have before we were able to learn Animal Husbandry and then plan out the Fast Worker's movements based on that. But, we're here for fun, so who really cares.

It's good to think about "bigger ideas," but it's also nice to just "slack off and have fun" instead of trying to play perfectly in most of your games.


The "big concept idea" with Forest Choping is to try and chop along a diagonal path. Just like tic-tac-toe, though, you don't have to Chop "in order" and can draw (Chop) the corners first and the middle later, or whatever.


I did like your idea of Mining the Plains Hills Forest square as one of the first Worker actions, though, so I might even say that that's the first spot we should aim to improve, by building a Mine there.

It would be nice to have a reasonable plan in place, so that we can decide whether or not people stuck to the plan (less likely to be the mole) or deviated from the plan (more likely to be the mole), but I don't really expect people to follow a detailed plan anyway, so let's just focus on having fun instead of trying to plan things out in too much detail.

 

[hoplitejoe]

Well that was tl;dr (not that will be anything to do in my turn)

My turn set,

Spoiler :

The worker finished COULDN'T DO ANYTHING!!! and I started on a work-boat.
BW finished next turn.

 

[Red_Spy]

Before I begin:

I see going animal husbandry is what to do after Bronze working, switch to slavery, and build some work boats, correct?

Edit: HJ, save?

 

[mayor]

that's seems to be a good plan

 

[hoplitejoe]

Save added.