The most infuriating diplomacy fails in G&K

GoodSarmatian

Jokerfied Western Male
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I think many people will agree that diplomacy and erratic AI were Civ V's biggest flaw. Gods and Kings has made some things better, but after more than a month of playing I have to say it's still far from good.
Yesterday Wahington offered me a declaration of friendship which I accepted and we made a research agreement.
Two turns later he declared war on a CS under my protection and refused to make peace even after I offered him my luxuries and gold for it. After I attacked him to protect my little buddy, people started denouncing me fo a) being a warmonger (it was the first war I had started) and b) attacking a friend.
Why am I the aggressor in this scenario ? :mad: The declaration of friendship should have been null and void the moment he attacked Warsaw.



What's the most infuriating thing that happened to you ?
 
Why am I the aggressor in this scenario ?

What's the most infuriating thing that happened to you ?
That's because you were the one who declared the war :crazyeye:

At one time, I was denounced as a warmonger for declaring a war due to a defence agreement. Guess who denounced me - it was the one who I had the defence agreement with.
 
in 2 turn swing, i had a DoF become a DoW, the next turn i killed one of their spies and then they came and apologized for the spy even though we were at war now.

but the most infuriating came when i was trying for the diplo vic and turn before the vote came up I had all the votes i needed and DoW'd the top 3 civs who were vying for all the votes as well. The next turn the vote came up, I checked the vic screen to see i had all the votes i needed and proceeded to click the vote button. when it finished it said i didnt win and only had 9 votes. when i exited that screen it said a spy (from one i wasnt DoW'd with) had created a coup (less than 50% chance) with one of my CSs. that was so infuriating that I rage-retired and deleted all the auto-saves.

i really hate the mass DoW tactic for winning Diplo but i was curious what would happen if i just selectively tried it. and i got my results. its still an awful "cheat" for a diplo vic.
 
The diplomacy was improved but is still far from great.
The thing that makes me LOL the most is when Alex turns hostile a turn after meeting me.
Oh and Isabella once called me a CS and turn after asked for a DoF.
The player should be able to do ALL these things the AI can.
Insult,question the units near borders,say he dosen't wan't the AI religion in his cities.
Is there any way this can be done by a mod ? :D :sheep:
 
Has Gods & Kings actually made diplomacy better? It seems to me that all it did was add a couple of extra modifiers, though I guess some modifiers expire now, which is good.

Aside from the clearly ridiculous situations (like the one described in the OP) I find peace treaties to be very annoying: sometimes, the AI will suddenly give you everything it has for peace - at other times, it won't make peace for thousands of years even though it has never been a threat to your cities. If an AI agrees to give you 5 gold for peace, and you declare war on the same AI 3,000 years later, nobody will give you anything for peace ever again, even if it means they will be wiped out.

To address specific situations, I wish we had the option to give the AI an ultimatum: something like "make peace with Florence or we declare war."
 
I just wished I knew why Gustavus Adolphus hated me. I tried to do everything to please him; I denounced leaders he denounced, I even went to war against America and Germany with him, (Luckily I got a DoF for about 50 turns) and when he told me to stop influencing a city-state I stopped. But then he just DoWed me right after I finished warring with America. The one good thing is that I think America and Germany hate him as much as I do. Then again, Sweden is pretty warmonger like. I just wish you could build lasting relationships with them.

I wish that relationships weren't built on army size alone. You should be able to build lasting allies without having to subdue them into submission first.
 
I hate it when the AI DOW's city-states. Particularly my allies. There should be ZERO diplomatic penalty for defending a CS you are allied with.

They need to fix this, but I doubt it will happen.

I always defend the CS's in my games.
 
The game desperately needs a casus belli system so that you can enter justified wars.

The game would also make it clear what is acceptable and unacceptable in these circumstances.
 
The main failures, imo, are:

The AI constantly undervalues your position. If I have a very small standing army, but have 10,000 gold and can rush buy 20 swordsmen, or have 20 cities that produce one in one turn each, the AI will think I'm completely pathetic due to not having a standing army, despite the fact that I can ramp up an army in short order and overcome them. I can leverage a small army a lot better than the AI because it is tactically ineffective and mostly hopes to just overwhelm you, particularly with its early boosts.

Almost all of your 'responses' are meaningless. Denounce the AI for spying? They don't care. They took tribute from your CS? They'll still do it. I am real tired of the "You'll pay for this" vs "I'm sorry this caused a divide" fakery of a 'choice'.

There is no 'casus belli' (loosely means just war). Doesn't matter if you're responding to a threat, protecting a CS, honoring a pact, if you declare war, you're gaining 'warmonger' amongst the civs of the world

There is no sense of permanence. AI's flipflop wildly because their current attitude towards you is always just a sum of various numbers. You can never build a lasting friendship or true ally, every AI will potentially backstab you, either out of aggression or desperation.

I miss vassalage, capitulation, and mutual victory. It's too bad, because they would all work pretty well here - vassals and surrendered civs could feed you a portion of their incomes just like puppet states.
 
I just cant stand when your about to grind an A.I into dust and they still refuse peace. who does that in reality? Absolutely nobody ever in the history of ever. Even nations like japan who were stubborn as balls eventually caved when they got nuked.

I hate how theres no reliabilaty in the A.I, it always flip flops randomly making anything imposible. They need some kind of system like the CS's where I can watch it degrade over time.
 
I think many people will agree that diplomacy and erratic AI were Civ V's biggest flaw. Gods and Kings has made some things better, but after more than a month of playing I have to say it's still far from good.
Yesterday Wahington offered me a declaration of friendship which I accepted and we made a research agreement.
Two turns later he declared war on a CS under my protection and refused to make peace even after I offered him my luxuries and gold for it. After I attacked him to protect my little buddy, people started denouncing me fo a) being a warmonger (it was the first war I had started) and b) attacking a friend.
Why am I the aggressor in this scenario ? :mad: The declaration of friendship should have been null and void the moment he attacked Warsaw.



What's the most infuriating thing that happened to you ?
Sounds like the AI played you for a fool to me.
 
I just cant stand when your about to grind an A.I into dust and they still refuse peace. who does that in reality? Absolutely nobody ever in the history of ever. Even nations like japan who were stubborn as balls eventually caved when they got nuked.

Hitler?

Go watch Downfall.
 
The main failures, imo, are:

The AI constantly undervalues your position. If I have a very small standing army, but have 10,000 gold and can rush buy 20 swordsmen, or have 20 cities that produce one in one turn each, the AI will think I'm completely pathetic due to not having a standing army, despite the fact that I can ramp up an army in short order and overcome them. I can leverage a small army a lot better than the AI because it is tactically ineffective and mostly hopes to just overwhelm you, particularly with its early boosts.


I would like some sort of "I immediately regret this decision" option for the AI when they lose the majority of their army in the first few turns of their attack. Right now, there seems to be some built in period where the AI refuses to sign a peace treaty no matter how badly they got trounced. Even after that allotted time, they will often refuse peace until you grab a couple siege units and start sieging his cities.
 
Not only that, but there is some weird dividing line between "I surrender and I'll give you basically all my gold, income, luxuries, and strategic resources" and "I will surrender but I'll give you NOTHING else, ever, no matter how badly the war has gone". Not even 1 gold piece when they are about to die.

I just cant stand when your about to grind an A.I into dust and they still refuse peace

And this.

It's kind of like when in Civ4 an AI would refuse to capitulate, only now we don't even have capitulation for the ones that would.
 
I hate it when the AI DOW's city-states. Particularly my allies. There should be ZERO diplomatic penalty for defending a CS you are allied with.

They need to fix this, but I doubt it will happen.

I always defend the CS's in my games.

Do you think it would be a good idea to allow your units to fight units hostile to an allied city state within its borders?

That would solve this problem and be historically accurate.
 
Do you think it would be a good idea to allow your units to fight units hostile to an allied city state within its borders?

That would solve this problem and be historically accurate.

I think if they attack your ally it should remove any DoF you have, but not breaking RAs. only DoW's should break RAs And that should only be coded such that it is viewed negatively by an AI civ, meaning that it is a rarity for an AI to be willing to attack a CS if you are allies. not impossible, just that the ai understands the consequences.
 
Almost all of your 'responses' are meaningless. Denounce the AI for spying? They don't care. They took tribute from your CS? They'll still do it. I am real tired of the "You'll pay for this" vs "I'm sorry this caused a divide" fakery of a 'choice'.

There is no 'casus belli' (loosely means just war). Doesn't matter if you're responding to a threat, protecting a CS, honoring a pact, if you declare war, you're gaining 'warmonger' amongst the civs of the world

It occurs to me that these have the same solution. If you answer "I'm sorry this caused a divide" a counter starts, and if you break that "promise" before time's up you suffer a diplo hit. How about, if you answer "You'll pay for this", a similar counter starts, and if you declare war within the time limit, you don't suffer the warmonger penalty?

There is no sense of permanence. AI's flipflop wildly because their current attitude towards you is always just a sum of various numbers.

It's an AI - how else would you have it determine relationships? It is a lot more consistent in G&K, and at least now "Friendly", "Neutral" and "Hostile" do tend to be reliable descriptors of an AI's attitude towards you, unless a backstab is planned.

You can never build a lasting friendship or true ally, every AI will potentially backstab you, either out of aggression or desperation.

My alliance with Babylon in my current game has gone on since shortly after first contact in the 1000s BC until 1886 AD so far, with no sign that it's going to fade. Nebby's been a moderately useful ally when enemy forces are around him (and two of his cities protect the flanks of Pi-Rameses, so he's taken on his fair share of Ottoman rifles), though despite his tendency to declare war left and centre he's not very interested in taking the fight to the Ottomans - they're my enemy more than his, and his key rivals aren't in a position to threaten his interests (since, with his and Singapore's help, I captured Pi-Rameses, all Egyptian territory is across the sea).

I contacted Austria much later, but they've also proved reliable allies, though despite their high technology and insistence on having me start wars with them, their contribution generally amounts to one Infantry at a time that seems there mostly to show willing. They did give me a heads-up that allowed me to prevent a coming war with Arabia, though, so having them onside has its uses.

I miss vassalage, capitulation, and mutual victory.

A form of mutual victory would probably help the AI to act more cooperatively, certainly.

Do you think it would be a good idea to allow your units to fight units hostile to an allied city state within its borders?

You can just gift the CS units with the same intent, surely? In my current game Egypt launched an attack on Singapore, including the use of ranged ships (Singapore had no fleet). I sent them a caravel and a musketeer, which the CS used effectively to eliminate the attacking Galleases and move on Pi-Ramesses (replacing Babylonian musketeers who had perished in their attempt, making enough of a hole that I could move in and grab the city) - Singapore managed to fend off the land attack by itself.
 
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