The most infuriating diplomacy fails in G&K

A DoF is only needed to sign the RA. As long as you don't go to war, your RA won't get canceled just because you're no longer friends. Your DoF will expire before the RA pops anyways unless you do your DoF and RA on the same turn.

ive had them expire, they are only DoF for 10 turns. im talking about the rampant backstabbing to break them. they must have coded them to happen less often, at least on emperor and under. broken RAs happened in every game (well, 99% at least) in vanilla. havent had one yet in GnK which is what im pretty impressed with. that being said, im expecting to jinx myself in any game now, haha.
 
That really only lingers for about a turn then it goes away. Most of the time the "Friendly" status is just deceptive. I've had plenty of times when I will get a peace deal and then be denounced the next turn or I get DoWed by a "friendly" person shortly after a peace treaty expires.

Friendly is usually reliable, but yes past enemies should be an exception. And they really need to fix the constant "declare peace then denounce" attitude - what incentive is there to make peace in a winning situation when by doing so you end up getting denounced and taking a further diplo hit?

Also the insults thing really needs to go away, it's so pointless, generic and boring. Maybe if they were actually leader specific, it would be more interesting, like Monty commenting that your empire is about as lively as the thirty people he just sacrificed.

I think different civs are predisposed to select different insults (some prefer "I'm surprised you haven't succumbed to barbarian invasion", others "Your military is a little on the weak side"), but yes the pool to choose from is limited.

But for example, on my Immortal game yesterday, Atilla DoWed me about the time I hit Gunpowder, so I counterattacked and rolled him over with a pile of Muskets and Crossbows. Like 20 turns later when I beating the crap out of Spain with Caroleans, I get a "Ah, it's good to see my favorite city-state again".

Hmm, that's one I haven't seen yet. I like the various permutations of "I just bullied your CS, though".
 
I played a continent game where both Babylon and France were attacking my CS allies and I had declared on both of them in retaliation (to protect my CS allies that I had pledged to protect) and I never received any kind of warmonger penalty. I do recall that in conversing with other nations I got several "best of luck in your current conquest" comments.

Both of the bragging dialogues "I attacked your favorite city state" etc. I responded with "you will pay for this" - so maybe that does offer some sort of warmonger protection? Or maybe everyone else was playing nice because I had the largest army in the world :king:
 
I played a continent game where both Babylon and France were attacking my CS allies and I had declared on both of them in retaliation (to protect my CS allies that I had pledged to protect) and I never received any kind of warmonger penalty. I do recall that in conversing with other nations I got several "best of luck in your current conquest" comments.

Both of the bragging dialogues "I attacked your favorite city state" etc. I responded with "you will pay for this" - so maybe that does offer some sort of warmonger protection? Or maybe everyone else was playing nice because I had the largest army in the world :king:

Same experience here in my current game. In the Information Age and I've only been at war twice. Once when I was attacked and another to help an allied city state. In both cases I razed opposition cities (didn't touch capitols) without get labeled a warmonger, just the "best of luck" comment.
 
I think most of you are overthinking this or expecting too much from this (roleplaying perhaps?). There are more diplomatic-centric scenarios and games (like Diplomacy or probably the Paradox games). In Civilization, diplomacy can be safely ignored and you can still win. I've done so winning several different ways (except Time) up to Immortal. It also could require you to change your victory priorities depending on game situations.
Not all civers here play to just win games, rather many people play to have an enjoyable experience. A more logical diplomacy would certainly make it better for most civers if not for all. If u give me a choice between better diplomacy or better tactical AI, I'll choose better diplomacy. While better tactical AI would most likely give u stiffer challenge, a better diplo system would help u to immerse yourself in the civ world.
 
And they really need to fix the constant "declare peace then denounce" attitude - what incentive is there to make peace in a winning situation when by doing so you end up getting denounced and taking a further diplo hit?

The AI should, at the very least, take into consideration whether you gave them a fair (or even favorable) peace deal or not.

Diplomacy has definitely improved.

Yes, it certainly has. But that doesn't prevent developing the game further to continue on that path of making diplomacy better. :)
 
AI's will play a game wherein they'll befriend many opponents and mess with the last one or two. If by then you haven't "chosen sides" it puts you in the position of being the odd man out. Attila is notorious for this, as is Washington. I suppose it would be hindsight to say watch the diplomacy tabs a little closer, but this is what you need to do.

I agree you let the AI put you in the position.
 
I've had nice experiences with diplomacy. Although I agree that there's some tuning needed, I can tell that I've been able to make a lot of sense so far of the diplomacy game.

In my last game, I decided to go for a diplo win around the time when I hit industrial era. I looked carefully over the civs on the map, and immediately made conclusions of who is friendly/unfriendly with who.

There was just one more civ on my continent - treacherous Iroquois who had backstabbed me previously when I was warring with Ethiopia (which declared war on me and who had become really inconvenient to me by spreading their religion); I had already killed Ethiopia. On another continent there were Denmark, Sweden, Spain and Songhai, and on a very big island Siam.

I understood that there could be no friendship with either Sweden or Denmark, and figured that Siam and Songhai, who were in conflict with them, were good for befriending (even though my friendship towards Siam would be bitter - I knew that I would have to compete for city states against them a lot). So I carefully nurtured this friendship, by trades, denouncing the civs they disliked (Sweden and Denmark), and later agreeing to declare war against Sweden together with Siam.

The good relationships with both of them stayed till the end of the game, even while I was ruthlessly taking over city states from Siam (via quests, gold and coups) and while both Siam and Songhai took Freedom while I had chosen Order. I never got a warmonger penalty from them, simply for the reason that I had taken the care to become friends first. Note that I steamrolled over Iroquois (who unsurprisingly DoW-d me again) and took their capital (although I didn't fully wipe them off), and I had the warmonger penalty shown for Sweden, Denmark and Spain - but the guys who had already been my friends never brought it up.

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As for city state politics, I can't agree with the OP's point of view. The city state you're allied with isn't an extension of your empire. You can't really claim that a war against a civ to protect a city state is a just thing. Maybe that city state is blocking that civ's way to expansion, or maybe it holds some important resources, or maybe the AI just sees some profit in it. This is not your territory, and thinking that it is merely shows you as an imperialistic civ. If you DoW another civ over it, then it's fair that you get the penalty in the eyes of the world.

The game does in fact give you some tools here. First, you can pledge to protect a CS, not just get allied with them. In that case, the attacking civ would come to you and give you the option to revoke your protection or keep it intact. Choosing the latter you get a relationship hit only with this civ, not others. After a few hits like that, the'll likely DoW you anyway, so you won't be the aggressor.

As for the suggestion for Casus Belli: I'd welcome it, but only if it was very carefully implemented. The problem is that it is subject to very wild abuses. If you see that a civ constantly bullies City States, just ally with one that is close to them, and prepare your invasion army. They'll attack the CS, and then you pretend to be the savior of minor nations, while in reality you are the scheming villain who had staged that whole thing to safely tear territory from another major civ, without angering others.
 
As for city state politics, I can't agree with the OP's point of view. The city state you're allied with isn't an extension of your empire. You can't really claim that a war against a civ to protect a city state is a just thing. Maybe that city state is blocking that civ's way to expansion, or maybe it holds some important resources, or maybe the AI just sees some profit in it. This is not your territory, and thinking that it is merely shows you as an imperialistic civ. If you DoW another civ over it, then it's fair that you get the penalty in the eyes of the world.

Disagree with you on all points.

a) The city state you're allied with is not an extension of your empire, but it is your friend and partner. If it is attacked by an agressor (and all the other AI civs are agressors if they attack a CS, since CS's aren't expansionist warmongers), you have a right, and an expectation by that CS, to help defend them. You don't just yawn and let your friends get rolled over by any agressor civ that wanders by, for any kind of lame-arsed Mussolini reasons. To defend them in this situation is a completely just thing to do.

b) Selfish AI 'reasons' for attacking a CS: It's in the way of their expansion? And that expansion is more 'just' than your right to defend your friend from being destroyed in the name of selfish AI expansionism? Some kind of moral system you go by, there. Maybe it holds some important resources the agressor civ wants? Maybe the agressor just sees 'some profit in it'? Haha. And you're accusing the PLAYER of imperialism by defending them? <shakes head> If the AI wants to outbid me for their friendship, or even buy them out (Austria), so be it. But if they want to brutally conquer a friend who is under my protection, I have every right and even a duty to stop them. End of story.
 
The AI should, at the very least, take into consideration whether you gave them a fair (or even favorable) peace deal or not.

With its current coding the AI considers any peace deal it will accept as favourable.

And, really? We've been at war for 800 years and you feel the need to "tell the world of my sins". Continent-scale war raging for centuries (and yes, I started it), and you think they might have missed it?

AI's will play a game wherein they'll befriend many opponents and mess with the last one or two. If by then you haven't "chosen sides" it puts you in the position of being the odd man out. Attila is notorious for this, as is Washington. I suppose it would be hindsight to say watch the diplomacy tabs a little closer, but this is what you need to do.

I usually choose sides early and have a key role in moulding my power bloc. In my current game I've been allied with Babylon all game; shortly after I met Austria I brought them into the alliance, and it was only after they became friendly with me that they declared friendship with Babylon.

There's a pretty confusing tangle of relationships generally, but there are two consistent triumvirates that have lasted throughout - me (Siam), Austria and Babylon, and Egypt/Polynesia/Byzantium - probably solidified by mutual hatred (we each seem to have arch-rivals -Babylon's is Egypt, Austria's is Polynesia. Mine is the 'standalone' Ottomans, but I've brought Nebuchadnezzar into wars against them in the past and Maria Theresa is nominally in a state of permanent war with Suleiman). I'm also allied to another powerful bloc - China and Arabia - but China hates Austria and Arabia hates Babylon. The remaining surviving civs seem to be wildcards of sorts - the Ottomans have hated me all game but don't seem to have allies; they were allied with Arabia but that now seems to be over, probably helped by my sharing intrigue that Suleiman was sending an attack force towards Mecca. I'm not sure who Askia or Darius are associated with, but they both dislike me for denouncing their friends and being friends with their enemy (probably Austria, who is most people's enemy, possibly partly because she wiped out America).

I understood that there could be no friendship with either Sweden or Denmark, and figured that Siam and Songhai, who were in conflict with them, were good for befriending (even though my friendship towards Siam would be bitter - I knew that I would have to compete for city states against them a lot). So I carefully nurtured this friendship, by trades, denouncing the civs they disliked (Sweden and Denmark), and later agreeing to declare war against Sweden together with Siam.

In my current game, despite being Siam, I'm pretty much out of the running for the favour of most CSes since I haven't cultivated them enough in the late game and everyone else has long-entrenched spies rigging elections in key states (Yerevan for some reason seems to be the big prize everyone's fighting over, though Almaty, Belgrade and Ragusa get their share of attention). I invested a lot in Kuala Lumpur early in the game, only for Austria to marry it before I could disrupt their alliance. I do however have a longstanding relationship with Singapore, which is also a favourite state of Harun al Rashid. However, I've competed for its favour several times and drove out his supporters in a coup, yet haven't had the "We're competing for the favour of the same city-states" negative yet (although Harun really used to hate that in vanilla).
 
Diplomacy in this game needs casus bellis(so AI can attack/extort CSs under my protection and nothing happens, then what's the point of the protection mechanic in the 1st place if no penalties are enforced on the aggressor?) and war weariness(wars that last nonstop for a millenium, really?).
 
b) Selfish AI 'reasons' for attacking a CS: It's in the way of their expansion? And that expansion is more 'just' than your right to defend your friend from being destroyed in the name of selfish AI expansionism? Some kind of moral system you go by, there. Maybe it holds some important resources the agressor civ wants? Maybe the agressor just sees 'some profit in it'? Haha. And you're accusing the PLAYER of imperialism by defending them? <shakes head> If the AI wants to outbid me for their friendship, or even buy them out (Austria), so be it. But if they want to brutally conquer a friend who is under my protection, I have every right and even a duty to stop them. End of story.
Hm, haven't you ever attacked a CS yourself? Just to make sure that you secure an important resource, or just because it is very easy to conquer and hence increase your power base early? To me, those seem like very valid tactical reasons. And I don't see why the AI wouldn't use them, too.

I mean, what infuriates the players when they have their friendly CS-s stolen from them this way is the loss of benefits, and the gain of benefits by the other guy - not some benevolent wish to protect the weak ones (a player usually doesn't care in the slightest when another civ attacks a CS allied with a third civ - it's only when they attack something that he considers his property, even though it isn't, that he gets angry).
 
As someone who chose Freedom over Autocracy and thus chose to protect the world (and Freedom Fries) from the evil oppression of immortal communist sociopathic authoritarians, I find the claim that nobody protects CS for altruistic reasons to be very disingenuous.:)
 
Hm, haven't you ever attacked a CS yourself? Just to make sure that you secure an important resource, or just because it is very easy to conquer and hence increase your power base early?

Conquering a CS early just destroys your relationship with like half the civs in the game, especially CS protective ones. If I want their resource, I'll ally them. The only time I'll conquer a CS is very late in the game when the outcome has already been decided and I just want to end things fast.

I mean, what infuriates the players when they have their friendly CS-s stolen from them this way is the loss of benefits, and the gain of benefits by the other guy

There's not really a whole lot of benefits to BE gained is the problem. By conquering the CS, the AI loses the culture/faith/food/units the CS would give them.

- not some benevolent wish to protect the weak ones (a player usually doesn't care in the slightest when another civ attacks a CS allied with a third civ - it's only when they attack something that he considers his property, even though it isn't, that he gets angry).

You can't go defend everyone on the map or you'd end up being attacked...including by the CS allies of the people you are defending the other CS against. So, yes, at some point, you HAVE to factor your own interests in because it would be impossible to defend everyone. This is made worse by how, as someone else mentioned, if the CS is far away, it may make peace or get conquered before you can even get there in time. But CSes are your allies and partners in the game, it's natural to want to defend them. It's not like they don't get benefits; they get TONS of money tossed in their lap and they get the protection of a bigger civ. I actually kind of hope someone makes a mod one day where you can play as a CS, I think it would be hilarious. :p

And if you think we treat the city-states like property, we're nothing compared to the AI. In my last game Atilla had conquered Valletta(which led to the world basically hating him) Spain took it back but did not liberate it. I liberated it, Spain had enough Tercios to re-take it(It only had like 19 defense at this point) and then I re-took it again. I ended up with like 270-something influence because I liberated them twice. What happens next? Ethiopia gets on me about Valletta being in their "sphere of influence". He had done literally squat for them all game long and treats them like they're his. The AI complains at you all the time for buying CS that they haven't touched the entire game, claiming its "their" city-state.
 
Hm, haven't you ever attacked a CS yourself? Just to make sure that you secure an important resource, or just because it is very easy to conquer and hence increase your power base early? To me, those seem like very valid tactical reasons. And I don't see why the AI wouldn't use them, too.

I have attacked CS's in the past, back when I was new to the game. But not anymore. They are simply too valuable as allies, and a lot less valuable to me as puppets. The only situations where I attack a CS anymore, is if they are allied with an enemy that is attacking me (very rarely need to bother doing this, as they usually aren't much of a threat), or if they have been puppeted by an enemy AI and I take the city to liberate it (always satisfying). Those reasons you state may indeed be valid, for an AI or player only concerned with maximizing their conquering efficiency. But it is equally valid for me to take umbrage to their soullessly efficient conquering tactics running roughshod over my old friends, and proceed to stomp their Hitlerite arses into the sewer sludge of history. Ooorah! I find my reaction to their imperialism may not always be tactically efficient, but it is quite satisfying.

I mean, what infuriates the players when they have their friendly CS-s stolen from them this way is the loss of benefits, and the gain of benefits by the other guy - not some benevolent wish to protect the weak ones (a player usually doesn't care in the slightest when another civ attacks a CS allied with a third civ - it's only when they attack something that he considers his property, even though it isn't, that he gets angry).

To some extent, I suppose. But I also consider a CS that I've invested a lot of time and gold and sometimes protection to over the milenia, as 'my little buddies'. Digital friends, if you will. I'm good to them, they're good to me, and we have a lot of shared history, sometimes. Just as you care more about your RL friends (I hope?) than people you've never even met. Just the way things are. Sometimes I put a little humanity into my gameplay... just the way I am.
 
I was playing a last game where i killed off both austria and mongolia, bismark and sejong didn't care about that but me setling another city nowhere near them sent them overboard. I fail to see the logic but i suppose there is a reason for that... :crazyeye:
 
What happens next? Ethiopia gets on me about Valletta being in their "sphere of influence". He had done literally squat for them all game long and treats them like they're his. The AI complains at you all the time for buying CS that they haven't touched the entire game, claiming its "their" city-state.

Suddenly I feel like I'm in high school again...
 
But it is equally valid for me to take umbrage to their soullessly efficient conquering tactics running roughshod over my old friends, and proceed to stomp their Hitlerite arses into the sewer sludge of history. Ooorah! I find my reaction to their imperialism may not always be tactically efficient, but it is quite satisfying.
Yes, sure, I have treated my CS allies that way too, feeling protective and so on. It's just that it doesn't infuriate me when another civ either DoW-s them or steals them. I take that as a very natural behavior. And I can't really expect that for that offense I should be allowed to DoW them without a diplo hit from the others (and due to that I have much less problems with diplomacy in civ)
 
They should give leaders the ability to see FRIENDLY as a different color meaning it's a crock based on their real life ability to read people. And I sort of get baffled by DoF sometimes. I had someone DoF with me when it said GUARDED :crazyeye:

And I wish that when Alex insulted me about being his favorite CS, he would at least DoW someone who attacked me :lol:
 
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