The Nineteen Eighty-Four thread

[RedRalph]

More or less much everyone on OT seems to have read it, and if you havent, do. Its the best book ever written.

A few discussion points:

1. Is there a war going on?

2. Is is possible for the proles to rise up?

3. Can the societies described survive indefinitely? Taking the mind-reading techniques they have to be real. Would stopping all technological progress also stop political change? Would a natural disaster, famine, or some other event eventually see BB toppled?

 

[philippe]

More or less much everyone on OT seems to have read it, and if you havent, do. Its the best book ever written.

A few discussion points:

1. Is there a war going on?

2. Is is possible for the proles to rise up?

3. Can the societies described survive indefinitely? Taking the mind-reading techniques they have to be real. Would stopping all technological progress also stop political change? Would a natural disaster, famine, or some other event eventually see BB toppled?

I like 1984 but brave new world is more fitting.

and BB can never be toppled. as the proles will never be conscious again.

 

[RedRalph]

I like 1984 but brave new world is more fitting.

and BB can never be toppled. as the proles will never be conscious again.

but like I said, surely a big famine, global warming etc could cause the govt to collapse?

 

[philippe]

but like I said, surely a big famine, global warming etc could cause the govt to collapse?

absolutely not, becuase the poeple wouldn't even know what is going on.

 

[RedRalph]

absolutely not, becuase the poeple wouldn't even know what is going on.

If they had nothing to eat the state would have a hard time keeping their loyalty

 

[philippe]

If they had nothing to eat the state would have a hard time keeping their loyalty

North-Korea proves you wrong, i'm afraid.

 

[Winner]

More or less much everyone on OT seems to have read it, and if you havent, do. Its the best book ever written.

A few discussion points:

1. Is there a war going on?

War is perpetual, it never stops, but it remains to be contained in the disputed areas between the three superpowers.

2. Is is possible for the proles to rise up?

No. The thought police searches for ambitious and intelligent individuals who could potentially lead a revolt and "vaporizes" them.

Any conceivable revolt would have to be organized by some inner party faction, which is extremelly unlikely given that they profit from being the inner party.

3. Can the societies described survive indefinitely? Taking the mind-reading techniques they have to be real. Would stopping all technological progress also stop political change? Would a natural disaster, famine, or some other event eventually see BB toppled?

Hardly. I think one of the superpowers would eventually collapse because its natural resources would be completely exhausted. As a result, this superpower would collapse and be destroyed and the other two would then destroy themselves with nuclear weapons.

 

[nivi]

If they had nothing to eat the state would have a hard time keeping their loyalty

The state doesn't need loyalty, just fear.

 

[RedRalph]

North-Korea proves you wrong, i'm afraid.

Not really. Ukraine in the 1920s proves me right. The extent of that famine has never been proven, its mere speculation, and in any case it didnt last long. a long famine would be a different story

 

[Maneck21]

If they have nothing to eat, then BB tells them that the Eurasians are eating all the food. And that if they want to eat they should work harder.

 

[RedRalph]

The state doesn't need loyalty, just fear.

and eventually fear of starvation will always beat fear of getting shot

 

[RedRalph]

Winner as reagrds point1, I habve of course read the book, but it is suspected in the book that there may in fact be no war at all, it might be an illusion, there may be only one state

 

[dosed150]

the proles seem the most free part of society, no one really spys on them and they can pretty much do what they like, would they bother rising up, as for the war its impossible to know, although if the government was making it up, why would they make up something like the sudden change of enemies, wouldnt it be easier for them to keep eurasia as the enemy than change to eastasia if theres no war actually happening

 

[philippe]

hunger makes you willess, just look at the concentration camps for starters, hunger is a very powerfull tool. after all, if there would be any revolters where would they get their food?

also, I think headcrabs would be used by BB if they had it

 

[RedRalph]

the proles seem the most free part of society, no one really spys on them and they can pretty much do what they like, would they bother rising up, as for the war its impossible to know, although if the government was making it up, why would they make up something like the sudden change of enemies, wouldnt it be easier for them to keep eurasia as the enemy than change to eastasia if theres no war actually happening

Keeping the people in a constant state of confusion about who their enemies are I suppose.

 

[Winner]

North-Korea proves you wrong, i'm afraid.

North Korea will collapse, it's just a matter of time. If it wasn't for the chinese support, it would be long gone now.

Anyway, to maintain such a control over the society, you need to keep the economy going - you need to feed all those police officers, outer party members and provide the proles with cheap pornography and lottery. If the economy failed completely, the chains would break and the totalitarian rule would collapse. Not into democracy, but total anarchy.

 

[Patroklos]

1. Is there a war going on?

This is a good question that I have heard come up before. I say there is in fact a war because it would alow them to dispose of excess production (they can't make consumer goods, and people can't be idle) as well as keep a real stressor/distraction on the people. Presumable ever soldier who goes to the front doesn't die or fight indefinetly, even in 1984 someone would eventiually make it home.

2. Is is possible for the proles to rise up?

No. It was made clear they were completely devoid of power. Kept happy by enough food/booze and kept busy by war and work they have no time to organize. Not only that, but there is nothing for them to aspire to. They don't know that there could be anything better, in when newspeak takes root they won't be able to articulate such ideas anyway.

3. Can the societies described survive indefinitely? Taking the mind-reading techniques they have to be real. Would stopping all technological progress also stop political change? Would a natural disaster, famine, or some other event eventually see BB toppled?

Interstingly, Orwell never described actual mindreading. It was always physical observation or none telepathic pychological techniques used to control party members. I can see natural disasters temporarily causing problems. If a Katrina hit it is very likely the telescreens might not work for a few days and people really would be on their own. However, given the scale of these states and the resources at their disposal, they can easily weather the loss of any one population center if it needs to be sanitized. Just blame it on an East Asian nuke.

 

[RedRalph]

hunger makes you willess, just look at the concentration camps for starters, hunger is a very powerfull tool. after all, if there would be any revolters where would they get their food?

also, I think headcrabs would be used by BB if they had it

Yeah bu that ios using deliberate hunger as a tool. People in concentration camps were pliant because they thought if they "behave" they would get more food. If there was a huge, real, unsolveable famine in Oceania, even the party would start to starve, and there wouldnt be food to keep them loyal with no food

 

[nivi]

and eventually fear of starvation will always beat fear of getting shot

No, not really.

 

[Patroklos]

My biggest problem with the book was the placement of the super powers. East Asia is completely unsustainable, and Oceania is absolutely hegemonic over the other two. I think it has a lot to do with when it was written, but for all three states to be maintained their core territories would have to be different.