The no spin zone goes to Cuba

[abradley]

First there's a short video about what O'Rielly found there

http://video.foxnews.com/v/48313619...-cuba/?playlist_id=930909812001#sp=show-clips

And then a back and forth with Juan Williams (Enough: The Phony Leaders, Dead-End Movements, and Culture of Failure That Are Undermining Black America--and What We Can Do About It Kindle Edition
by Juan Williams (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Enough-Dead-E...FK4_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1459833387&sr=1-3)

http://video.foxnews.com/v/48313768...alism/?playlist_id=930909812001#sp=show-clips

 

[emzie]

People still take O'Rielly seriously?

 

[BenitoChavez]

For anyone who doesn't want to watch the videos: Socialism = bad therefore the Castro brothers = bad and Bernie Sanders = Bad. So the usual talking points.

However O'Rielly seems gloss over the fact that Bernie doesn't want to control the means of production or implement a police state which kinda pokes a hole in the "Bernie will make the US like Cuba" insinuation.

 

[Borachio]

I never did understand why socialism is such a bad thing for Americans.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Socialism = bad

National socialism = Good ?
Well communism has failed, except for the worlds second largest economy, China which is a mix of Rampant capitalism with socialist Bureaucracy

 

[Zkribbler]

I never did understand why socialism is such a bad thing for Americans.

Too many uneducated Americans and right wingers equate socialism with Stalinism.

They're unaware that the highest standards of living and the greatest chances for economic advancement are now found in Scandinavian nations.

Well communism has failed, except for the worlds second largest economy, China which is a mix of Rampant capitalism with socialist Bureaucracy

China is no longer communist. Its system is best described as "state capitalism."

 

[Arwon]

China is no longer communist. Its system is best described as "state capitalism."

It *does* seem that the mainline path of actually existing socialism has been as an alternative development pathway for turning an agrarian society into an industrialised capitalist one...

 

[warpus]

No spin zone, is that a place where meatspinning is not allowed?

 

[Lexicus]

Fer chrissakes, people just lose any sense of historical context when you're looking at Cuba and other "Socialist" countries.

Socialism was successful enough that even under the authoritarian rule of dogmatic Marxist-Leninists countries like the USSR and Cuba developed to modernized industrial economies much faster than the West did under liberal capitalism. The USSR in particular accomplished in only fifteen years what took the West centuries.

Socialism is obviously far more successful than capitalism since all the "capitalist" countries in the West are effectively socialist economies that are planned for corporate profit rather than for the benefit of the bulk of the people. And yet even with a neo-feudal class of corporate parasites sucking the blood of the economy people still manage to do pretty well for themselves.

Fortunately we are rapidly reaching a point where the wealthy domination of the economy is being recognized for what it is, and also recognized as a fetter on further development (rather than a necessity for further development).

 

[abradley]

Fer chrissakes, people just lose any sense of historical context when you're looking at Cuba and other "Socialist" countries.

Socialism was successful enough that even under the authoritarian rule of dogmatic Marxist-Leninists countries like the USSR and Cuba developed to modernized industrial economies much faster than the West did under liberal capitalism. The USSR in particular accomplished in only fifteen years what took the West centuries.

Socialism is obviously far more successful than capitalism since all the "capitalist" countries in the West are effectively socialist economies that are planned for corporate profit rather than for the benefit of the bulk of the people. And yet even with a neo-feudal class of corporate parasites sucking the blood of the economy people still manage to do pretty well for themselves.

Fortunately we are rapidly reaching a point where the wealthy domination of the economy is being recognized for what it is, and also recognized as a fetter on further development (rather than a necessity for further development).

Did they start from zero or were they building on other's ideas and works. It makes a difference, like if I go to school to learn math from a teacher or if I just think it all up on my own from zero.

 

[Lexicus]

Did anyone start from zero? The answer is obviously no. The West built on what had gone before no less than did the USSR.

Another thing worth pointing out: the USSR and Cuba both developed under conditions of extreme hostility from the "civilized" West. In both cases the advanced capitalist powers used every tool at their disposal including direct military intervention to thwart the revolutionaries who had seized power.

Now, of course everyone's probably thinking that I'm a Stalinist which couldn't be further from the truth. But the moral calculation for the Marxist-Leninist countries needs to be considered in the terms I set out in the previous post. Merely focusing on the brutality and murder would be to ignore half the story, rather as the less sophisticated critiques of capitalism tend to ignore all the benefits it has brought (ironically, Marx himself was a great admirer of capitalism, at least relative to the systems that preceded it).

I like to say: admire the surplus, abhor the methods used to accumulate it. Or, hate the player - not the game

 

[Recon Rover]

I've been to Cuba a bunch of times, primarily for inexpensive vacations with beautiful beaches and extremely kind people.

I'll admit, it is a country largely in poverty. And a good friend of mine from Cuba hasn't returned in years - but he is rather nostalgic about the country.

The Cubans are an extremely proud people in the face of the adversity they have faced from the United States. I don't feel as though they hold their government as responsible as they do the American government for their impoverished situation though.

 

[Lexicus]

I've been to Cuba a bunch of times, primarily for inexpensive vacations with beautiful beaches and extremely kind people.

I'll admit, it is a country largely in poverty. And a good friend of mine from Cuba hasn't returned in years - but he is rather nostalgic about the country.

The Cubans are an extremely proud people in the face of the adversity they have faced from the United States. I don't feel as though they hold their government as responsible as they do the American government for their impoverished situation though.

And they are largely correct to do so. The majority of people living in Cuba have been impoverished literally since the Europeans showed up (and probably before that too). Anyone who believes the socialists impoverished Cuba is an idiot.

The real story is how much people's lives have been improved by the socialists despite all the opposition and sabotage from the US.

 

[warpus]

Yeah, the embargo that lasted so long was a bit of a crime, the only reason it lasted so long are internal American politics. Glad to see all that bullcrap falling away.

 

[Recon Rover]

And they are largely correct to do so. The majority of people living in Cuba have been impoverished literally since the Europeans showed up (and probably before that too). Anyone who believes the socialists impoverished Cuba is an idiot.

The real story is how much people's lives have been improved by the socialists despite all the opposition and sabotage from the US.

I was last in Havana (During May Day) a couple of years ago:

Spoiler :

The banner translates:

The revolution continues, with no commitment to anyone at all, only with the people.

 

[abradley]

Did anyone start from zero? The answer is obviously no. The West built on what had gone before no less than did the USSR.

Another thing worth pointing out: the USSR and Cuba both developed under conditions of extreme hostility from the "civilized" West. In both cases the advanced capitalist powers used every tool at their disposal including direct military intervention to thwart the revolutionaries who had seized power.

Now, of course everyone's probably thinking that I'm a Stalinist which couldn't be further from the truth. But the moral calculation for the Marxist-Leninist countries needs to be considered in the terms I set out in the previous post. Merely focusing on the brutality and murder would be to ignore half the story, rather as the less sophisticated critiques of capitalism tend to ignore all the benefits it has brought (ironically, Marx himself was a great admirer of capitalism, at least relative to the systems that preceded it).

I like to say: admire the surplus, abhor the methods used to accumulate it. Or, hate the player - not the game

So you feel the repression is OK as long as there's some goodies also.

I'd rather an open society.

 

[Cutlass]

Let me ask this? Has O'Rielly ever done anything which wasn't essentially all spin?

 

[Lexicus]

So you feel the repression is OK as long as there's some goodies also.

I'd rather an open society.

If you are pro-capitalist, you feel that repression is OK as long as there's some goodies also.

I am not a Stalinist nor do I think the Cuban and USSR models are something to emulate. But at least I don't pretend the West is without sin. I consider liberal-capitalist development to be the lesser of two evils but it's undeniable that without the remarkably fast industrial development under Stalin the Germans would have waltzed into Moscow in 1941 and things would be very different today.

And BTW I'd also rather have an open society, which is why my politics are strongly anti-capitalist, anti-racist, anti-sexist, and all the rest.

 

[abradley]

If you are pro-capitalist, you feel that repression is OK as long as there's some goodies also.

I am not a Stalinist nor do I think the Cuban and USSR models are something to emulate. But at least I don't pretend the West is without sin. I consider liberal-capitalist development to be the lesser of two evils but it's undeniable that without the remarkably fast industrial development under Stalin the Germans would have waltzed into Moscow in 1941 and things would be very different today.

And BTW I'd also rather have an open society, which is why my politics are strongly anti-capitalist, anti-racist, anti-sexist, and all the rest.

My, that's a lot of 'antis'.

Don't know that I've ever made a list of my antis, even in my youth I felt our system was pretty good but needed some fixing.

 

[abradley]

Let me ask this? Has O'Rielly ever done anything which wasn't essentially all spin?

Define spin.