The Official Perfection KOs Creationism Thread!

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carlosMM said:
btw, a few must-reads:

Berra, Tim M. 1990: Evolution and the Myth of Creationism. Stanford: Stanford University Press
Eldrege, Niles. 2000 The Triumph of Evolution and the Failure of Creationism. New York: W.H. Freeman
Futuyma, Douglas 1983: Science on Tiral: The Case for Evolution. New York: Pantheon Books
Kitcher, Philip 1982: Abusing Science: The Case against Creationism. Cambridge, Mass.: MIT Press
Montagu, Ashley (ed.) 1983: Science and Creationism. New York: Oxford University Press
Newell, Norman D. 1982: Creation and Evolution: Myth or Reality?. New York: Columbia University Press
Peacocke, A.R. 1979: Creatin and the World of Science. Oxford: Clarendon Press
Ruse, Michael 1982: Darwinism Defended. Reading, Mass.: Addison-Wesley
Young, Willard 1985: Fallacies of Creationsim. Calgary, Alberta, Canada: Detrelig Enterprises


have fun :D

Reading those books would be utterly depressing as I am quite certain that the exact same Creationist lies debunked in those books more than 20 years old are still being used by Creationists today.
 
Sword_Of_Geddon said:
Its just that Perfection seems to take enthusiatic glee, and hes not the only one, mind you, at attacking the beliefs of people of faith. Now I must be very clear Perfection, I like you, and I respect you. You do have integrity, this isn't an attack on you. If some of you want to call me a zealot, perhaps you should look in the mirror. We are all zealots when it comes to our personal opinions and beliefs we hold in the highest regard.
If you call valuing scientifically gained knowledge as being a zealot I am one. However, if you use that to claim that evolution is faith based or miscontrue that in any way to claim that it's a religious belief.

Sword_Of_Geddon said:
-1. Creationism is clearly the Biblical position, 7 Days of creation, Global Flood Etc.
1. No it isn't, as I've seen many very learned religious folks claim that it's a metaphor
2. We're debating science here, not theology. Stick to science.

Sword_Of_Geddon said:
(I hear more evidence for the latter every day).
Like???

Sword_Of_Geddon said:
-2. To infuse the Theory of Evolution(Which has been embraced by Secular Humanists as their creation myth without a second thought),
It was embraced because when that term was created it placed a strong emphasis on science and the scientific evidence said evolution. Also, it's not a myth as:
1. There is much evidence that it actually occured
2. It denegrates evolution to a religious belief instead of a set of scientific ideas.

Sword_Of_Geddon said:
into creationism is blasphemy in my humble opinion....why? Because the Bible speaks of a perfect world BEFORE Adam and Eve sined. If Evolution is true, then there were Millions of years of death and suffering BEFORE Adam and Eve...that doesn't sound like a perfect world to me.
That's your philosophical quandry not mine. I suppose it could allude to the fact that there was no sentient life at that tiime and Adam and Eve were symbols of the evolutionary transition to new era of cognition where they could fully appreciate emotions like pain.

Sword_Of_Geddon said:
Compromise is the doom of the Christian faith.
If that's true (which I don't believe it is) then I hope Christian faith is doomed.
 
Sword_Of_Geddon said:
The Bible is to be taken literally or not at all. If it isn't taken literally, than the entire Gospol message is null and void. If you can't believe Genisis 1, how can you believe John 3:16?
That's your problem not mine, this thread is about science. Ask philosophical queestions elsewhere.

Edit: You could take genesis 1 as metaphorical
 
Sword_of_geddon said:
The Bible is to be taken literally or not at all. If it isn't taken literally, than the entire Gospol message is null and void. If you can't believe Genisis 1, how can you believe John 3:16?

For one thing, how do you know that it shuld be taken literally. For another thing, it contradicts itself on many occasions, so which contradiction are you supposed to believe?
 
ybbor said:
what? where does the bible say anything about giving all authority to the pope? i seem to recall something about 'give to cewaser what is ceaser's, and give to God what is God's, and some other thing about God putting our leaders in place for us

'You will be my rock on earth' (quote from memory): Petrus (rock) takes Jesus place on earth etc. So petrus and his successors are the governors of Jesus on earth.
 
Mr. Do said:
Reading those books would be utterly depressing as I am quite certain that the exact same Creationist lies debunked in those books more than 20 years old are still being used by Creationists today.

True, they are - wish is why I'd prefer if they'd read these books and then know that their case is lost instead of coming here again and again with the same ols propaganda
 
carlosMM said:
'You will be my rock on earth' (quote from memory): Petrus (rock) takes Jesus place on earth etc. So petrus and his successors are the governors of Jesus on earth.
According to Catholic doctrine, yes. Other branches consider Peter's special authority to be his only, and I believe you'll search in wane for any Biblical evidence against that view.
 
The Last Conformist said:
According to Catholic doctrine, yes. Other branches consider Peter's special authority to be his only, and I believe you'll search in wane for any Biblical evidence against that view.

what? how can anyone NOT take this literally from the bible? You are, my friend, again interpreting. It is not information to disprove the latter that is needed, but rather only Jesus word needed to prove my view! heretic!

everyone, stone him! :lol:





;)
 
I'd add that in fact there is no indication in Genesis, or elsewhere in the Bible, that the creation account (in fact there are two creation accounts, Gen 1:1-2:3 and 2:4-25 - note that in the first God makes the world followed by men and women, but in the second he makes man, then the world around him, then the woman) is not intended by its author to be taken literally.

The question is not whether it is a *metaphor*. It's not a metaphor. The question is whether it's *true*. I'd say it isn't, and so would most Christians today. As I have said elsewhere, there is no rule that says all Christians must believe every word of the Bible to be true (any more than there is a rule that says all Americans must believe every word of the US constitution to be perfect).

Now, you can certainly say that this account, as it stands, is not true as an account of the world; but you can still derive useful teaching from it. For example, it expresses the notion that nothing exists without God's desire for it to exist. The story is not a *metaphor* for that teaching, but it does express that teaching, and you don't have to believe the story in order to believe that teaching. That's why Christians who reject it as literally true still find value in it, as well as in other parts of the Bible that they do not believe are literally true.

Once again, in response to SOG's points above about believing some parts of the Bible and not others, let me warn against the danger of "reifying" the Bible (making it into a "thing"). The Bible is a collection of books, not a single book. Not all Christians even agree which books make it up. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church has several books in the Bible that no-one else accepts. The Roman Catholic Church takes the Apocrypha to be canonical, although with some reservations, although Protestants reject it. Note, in particular, that the reason why Protestants reject the Apocrypha (which was used by the Church right up to the Reformation) was that they believed that it was not part of the "original" Jewish Scriptures. They wanted the original Bible that Jesus would have known, so they rejected these "additional" books. In fact, of course, there was no standard Jewish canon in Jesus' day: it was in the late first century and thereafter (as Judiasm became rabbinical) that the Jews decided on the content of their Scriptures - at exactly the same time that the Christians were. So the "Jewish Scriptures" were not decided any earlier than the Catholic ones, making the Protestant basis for accepting the former canon over the latter utterly spurious.

Also, of course, some Christian figures have argued about these things. Martin Luther famously relegated the epistle of James to an appendix - pronouncing it non-canonical - because it contradicted his doctrine of salvation by faith alone. Dionysius the Great, an important theologian of the third century, argued that Revelation should not be in the New Testament because, by studying the language and ideas of the book, he concluded (rightly, as modern scholarship has shown) that it was not by St John. Note, incidentally, that Luther based his notion of which books should be part of the Bible on doctrinal grounds, and that Dionysius did so on grounds of authorship. Neither believed in some great divine revelation which had laid down in stone which books are part of the canon. They both realised that it is down to the church to decide how to treat the various books and other texts which it possesses, and whether to call some of them Scripture and others not. And that is precisely what they did.

Now, as I say, your views on Genesis and your views on the Gospels have nothing to do with each other. Do you suppose that New Testament scholars, when they study a section of John and ask whether it really happened or not, begin by wondering about Genesis? Of course not. They have nothing to do with each other. The church - or at least, most of the church (since the early Syrian church didn't use any of the canonical Gospels at all, preferring the Diatesseron of Tatian, which amalgamated them all) - regards Genesis as Scripture, and it also regards John as Scripture. It does not follow from that that Genesis and John are parts of the same text; neither does it follow that both should be regarded identically in every way.

But even if this weren't true, and even if the Bible were a single book, written by a single author, it still would not follow that rejecting the truth of Genesis would entail rejecting the truth of John. That's not how we normally behave when faced with books or any other sources of information. We do not have to choose between two options, one where the source is 100% true and infallible and one where it is 100% untrustworthy. Most things fall somewhere in the middle. For example, I'm watching Sky News today (I have to - it's my job - not by choice!) and they said something that I knew for a fact was wrong. Does it follow that nothing on Sky News is true? Of course not. It just means that you have to turn your brain on when watching and not blindly assume that "If they say it, it must be true." Similarly, if we're talking about ancient texts, is everything in Caesar's "Gallic Wars" true? Of course not. It's self-serving and partial. But does it follow that the whole thing is a tissue of lies? Again, of course not. Caesar was in the middle of it and wrote from experience and has much to tell us of value. You just need to keep your brain on as you read it, and look at other sources as well.

This is how we normally behave in everyday life. We do not normally act as though some sources are infallible and others are totally untrustworthy, and we will come a cropper if we do. To address SOG again, who I think is a pretty reasonable person, I'm sure I have said some things in my posts that you agree with (such as saying above that there is no Scriptural support for interpreting Genesis 1-2 as a metaphor). And I've no doubt said things that you don't agree with, too. But aren't you capable of telling the difference? You know which ones you agree with and which you don't. You don't have to ask yourself who I am or what authority I have to make such judgements - you simply evaluate what I say and judge accordingly. And the same is true of the Bible. Christians don't have an infallible, inerrant, single text from the hand of God himself - but they don't need one, either. The Bible they have is perfectly good enough if it is read sensibly and intelligently. There is no need to try to make it into something it is not.
 
Plotinus said:
I'd add that in fact there is no indication in Genesis, or elsewhere in the Bible, that the creation account (in fact there are two creation accounts, Gen 1:1-2:3 and 2:4-25 - note that in the first God makes the world followed by men and women, but in the second he makes man, then the world around him, then the woman) is not intended by its author to be taken literally.
An interesting question here, that I have never seen addressed, is what about the editor who put the two texts together in the book we know as Genesis. He can hardly have held both to be literally true in all details.
 
An interesting question, TLC, and one to which I do not have the answer since I am very far from being an Old Testament expert. But this is one of those things that suggested to scholars in the nineteenth century that Genesis was not simply a single text that had been written by a single person (according to tradition, Moses, of course) but had a more complex history, with a number of different sources, each of which can be picked out through distinctive language, concerns, and so on.

But I'll give you another example! Originally, the story of Adam and Eve (Gen 3) was *not* the story that the Hebrews used to explain the existence of sin and evil. There was an earlier myth known as the story of the Watchers. If memory serves, it went something like this. The Watchers were powerful spiritual beings that existed at a higher level of reality, and watched everything that went on. They saw human beings, and some of the Watchers fell in love with human women. They came down from their higher plane and slept with the human women. As a result of these unions, the women gave birth to giants - half-men, half-Watchers. These giants were evil, and turned upon their parents and other humans. Through them, evil entered the world.

An elaborate version of this myth is found in one of the apocryphal books of Enoch (I don't recall which one, as there are millions of the buggers). There, we learn that 200 of these Watchers, led by Semjaza-Azazel, came to earth to teach humanity. They taught human beings all kinds of useful knowledge, but unfortunately those Watchers still in heaven didn't approve of this. They attacked the Watchers who had descended and cast them out, and they tracked down the giants, their evil offspring, and killed them. The spirits of the giants remain to plague humanity.

Now, we can see why the Adam and Eve story came to take precedence over this as an explanation for the existence of evil: it's better. In the Watchers myth, humanity doesn't have much control over it. Evil comes from the giants, the children of the Watchers. And who are these Watchers anyway, and where did they come from? The Eden story is more satisfying: Adam and Eve brought misery upon themselves by deliberately choosing to disobey the command of God. It's more poignant, with the ill-starred couple forced out of the lost paradise and made to suffer. We even learn, along the way, why snakes crawl on the ground - although what they did before isn't specified (I'm not convinced by Milton's answer that the snake wriggled along with its lower parts but held most of its body upright, like a walking hatstand).

Anyway, the point is, there are traces of the Watchers story in Genesis as well. They come at the start of chapter 6, where we learn that "the sons of God" took wives from human women, and "there were giants". Clearly almost all of the story (those parts that make it make sense) are missing. Moreover, the author of Genesis has already used Adam and Eve to explain the existence of evil; this story - or what's left of it - is instead used to explain the especially bad evil that was going on in the days immediately before Noah, which caused God to send the flood. But it is interesting to see the traces of this earlier myth even in the text that has made the later one so much more important.
 
Perfection said:
The created a mountain, is geology wrong? They never created a tornado, is meteorology wrong? Your arguement is stupid
You heard wrong. Where did you get that?
Yes, they've expirementally shown that it can act as an enzyme
I've seen them form the phospholipid bilayer which is the basic structure of the membrane (but it lacked integral protiens)
Hematite can be formed by aqueous processes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematite

Water can act as a pretty good oxidizing agent


Ummm, a few things:
1. Get your creationist lies straight! Creationists lie with that big number when they talk about protiens not RNA. If your going to spout creationist lies at least make it consistant with other creationists.
2. It's unfounded for protiens because it's based on the assumption that we're just looking for a single protien when many will be useful
3. It's unfounded for nucleic acids because the've been produced

No but it's good evidence that it could come from the conditions on early earth.

Of course, it's a far more complex process then that.

All right I give up. You guys know more than I do. I see I could argue against some of this for some time but those would not be enough to be worth it. So I guess I'll come back when I know a little more. Thanks for your time.
 
The Last Conformist said:
An interesting question here, that I have never seen addressed, is what about the editor who put the two texts together in the book we know as Genesis. He can hardly have held both to be literally true in all details.

We were taught in religious education that the following happened:

the old, goat-herder-level story was not sufficitently sophisticated when the goat herders encountered babylonian cutlre, astronomy and mythology. In order to stop a flow of converts the genesis had to be rewritten - but one can't just throw the old story out, right? So a new genesis was written and placed BEFORE the old story, which was still kept in the holy book.

it is interresting to note to differences and parallels between both stories and babylonian knowledge ;)
 
The Last Conformist said:
It may interest someone that the piece about the "sons of God" in Gen. ch. 6 has been interpreted as proof of alien visits.

Hahaha yeah I know I find it funny they believe the Bible when it drives there idea, and not when it doesn't. They say that we got the ten commandments from aliens ( :lol: ), I saw it on the history channel.
 
Plotinus said:
[Phydeaux] Wow! What a decent and honest post. I'm impressed - my near-dead faith in the power of rational debate to persuade is boosted just a tad.

ironically, he was saying something about partly leaving because of his lack o faith in rational debate :lol:
 
Perfection said:

1. Almost every culture on the planet has some sort of flood myth.

2. Arqeological evidence exists around the world to support the theory that the sea-levels were once lower.

fig1.jpg
 
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