The Parable of the Talents

I am not a bible teacher, but I will give it a go. First of all, Wikipedia Article on Usury. I notice that you quoted the passage from the King James version. I would say the definition of the word, "usury" has changed over the course of 500 years. I also did not read the 1545 Act referenced in the Wikipedia article. (I have no idea if the King James use of the word "usury" condemns the action like today's use of the word "usury" would.)

(I generally see the condemnation against usury as against rich people taking advantage of poor people.)

The issue in question is the Master gave the Servant a job: Here is $20K. Go an invest it. Did he double his money like the other two servants? No. Was he supposed to invest it? Yes. Was he afraid of his boss? Yes. Clearly, as you said. Now he has to give an account of the money right after the other two did well and doubled their money.

Did the servant have any right whatsoever to pass judgment on his master like that? No. He had a job to do, but he did not do it and now he was trying to justify himself by condemning his boss's actions.

What does Old Testament law say about Usury? It is written in the Wikipedia article. One verse says you may lend to a foreigner with interest.

This might be similar to how you might feel about loaning money to close friends and family members. You might not charge them interest, but you will expect your money back. However, if you were loaning money to a stranger, you are much more likely to draw up a document stating the exact details of the loan, including the interest rate.

What is the context of the prohibition against usury?

I do not know anything about ancient Jewish society. Is a rich person loaning money to a poor person expecting nothing in return simply to be generous? I wonder how the rich person profits? Simply from being generous? If the poor person profits from the rich person's generosity, did the poor person traditionally give something on top of the repayment? I don't know. I'm just asking.

If I lent you $100 to go play blackjack or something, I am really expecting to see substantially less money back, if anything at all. However if you have a great night playing and you have $200, you will certainly return the $100. You might even return something on top of it.

Long post. Does any of this make sense?

I always thought that historically, Christians considered charging any amount of interest to be usury.

https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2007-fall/morality-of-moneylending/
Spoiler :
During the Dark Ages, the concept of an economy had little meaning. Human society had reverted to a precivilized state, and the primary means of trade was barter. Money all but disappeared from European commerce for centuries. There was, of course, some trade and some lending, but most loans were made with goods, and the interest was charged in goods. These barter-based loans, primitive though they were, enabled people to survive the tough times that were inevitable in an agrarian society.6

Yet the church violently opposed even such subsistence-level lending.

During this period, the Bible was considered the basic source of knowledge and thus the final word on all matters of importance. For every substantive question and problem, scholars consulted scripture for answers—and the Bible clearly opposed usury. In the Old Testament, God says to the Jews: “[He that] Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live . . . he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.”7 And:

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Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money; usury of victuals; usury of anything that is lent upon usury.

Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury, that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.8

In one breath, God forbade usury outright; in another, He forbade the Jews to engage in usury with other Jews but permitted them to make loans at interest to non-Jews.

Although the New Testament does not condemn usury explicitly, it makes clear that one’s moral duty is to help those in need, and thus to give to others one’s own money or goods without the expectation of anything in return—neither interest nor principal. As Luke plainly states, “lend, hoping for nothing again.”9 Jesus’ expulsion of the moneychangers from the temple is precisely a parable conveying the Christian notion that profit is evil, particularly profit generated by moneylending. Christian morality, the morality of divinely mandated altruism, expounds the virtue of self-sacrifice on behalf of the poor and the weak; it condemns self-interested actions, such as profiting—especially profiting from a seemingly exploitative and unproductive activity such as usury.

Thus, on scriptural and moral grounds, Christianity opposed usury from the beginning. And it constantly reinforced its opposition with legal restrictions. In 325 a.d., the Council of Nicaea banned the practice among clerics. Under Charlemagne (768–814 a.d.), the Church extended the prohibition to laymen, defining usury simply as a transaction where more is asked than is given.10 In 1139, the second Lateran Council in Rome denounced usury as a form of theft, and required restitution from those who practiced it. In the 12th and 13th centuries, strategies that concealed usury were also condemned. The Council of Vienne in 1311 declared that any person who dared claim that there was no sin in the practice of usury be punished as a heretic.

There was, however, a loophole among all these pronouncements: the Bible’s double standard on usury. As we saw earlier, read one way, the Bible permits Jews to lend to non-Jews. This reading had positive consequences. For lengthy periods during the Dark and Middle Ages, both Church and civil authorities allowed Jews to practice usury. Many princes, who required substantial loans in order to pay bills and wage wars, allowed Jewish usurers in their states. Thus, European Jews, who had been barred from most professions and from ownership of land, found moneylending to be a profitable, albeit hazardous, profession.

Although Jews were legally permitted to lend to Christians—and although Christians saw some practical need to borrow from them and chose to do so—Christians resented this relationship. Jews appeared to be making money on the backs of Christians while engaging in an activity biblically prohibited to Christians on punishment of eternal damnation. Christians, accordingly, held these Jewish usurers in contempt. (Important roots of anti-Semitism lie in this biblically structured relationship.)

Opposition to Jewish usurers was often violent. In 1190, the Jews of York were massacred in an attack planned by members of the nobility who owed money to the Jews and sought to absolve the debt through violence.11 During this and many other attacks on Jewish communities, accounting records were destroyed and Jews were murdered. As European historian Joseph Patrick Byrne reports:

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“Money was the reason the Jews were killed, for had they been poor, and had not the lords of the land been indebted to them, they would not have been killed.”12 But the “lords” were not the only debtors: the working class and underclass apparently owed a great deal, and these violent pogroms gave them the opportunity to destroy records of debt as well as the creditors themselves.13

In 1290, largely as a result of antagonism generated from their moneylending, King Edward I expelled the Jews from England, and they would not return en masse until the 17th century.

From the Christian perspective, there were clearly problems with the biblical pronouncements on usury. How could it be that Jews were prohibited from lending to other Jews but were allowed to lend to Christians and other non-Jews? And how could it be that God permitted Jews to benefit from this practice but prohibited Christians from doing so? These questions perplexed the thinkers of the day. St. Jerome’s (ca. 347–420) “solution” to the conundrum was that it was wrong to charge interest to one’s brothers—and, to Christians, all other Christians were brothers—but it was fine to charge interest to one’s enemy. Usury was perceived as a weapon that weakened the borrower and strengthened the lender; so, if one loaned money at interest to one’s enemy, that enemy would suffer. This belief led Christians to the absurd practice of lending money to the Saracens—their enemies—during the Crusades.14

Like the Greeks and Romans, Christian thinkers viewed certain economic transactions as zero-sum phenomena, in which a winner always entailed a loser. In the practice of usury, the lender seemed to grow richer without effort—so it had to be at the expense of the borrower, who became poorer. But the Christians’ economic hostility toward usury was grounded in and fueled by biblical pronouncements against the practice—and this made a substantial difference. The combination of economic and biblical strikes against usury—with an emphasis on the latter—led the Church to utterly vilify the usurer, who became a universal symbol for evil. Stories describing the moneylenders’ horrible deaths and horrific existence in Hell were common. One bishop put it concisely:

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God created three types of men: peasants and other laborers to assure the subsistence of the others, knights to defend them, and clerics to govern them. But the devil created a fourth group, the usurers. They do not participate in men’s labors, and they will not be punished with men, but with the demons. For the amount of money they receive from usury corresponds to the amount of wood sent to Hell to burn them.15

Such was the attitude toward usury during the Dark and early Middle Ages. The practice was condemned primarily on biblical/moral grounds. In addition to the fact that the Bible explicitly forbade it, moneylending was recognized as self-serving. Not only did it involve profit; the profit was (allegedly) unearned and exploitative. Since the moneylender’s gain was assumed to be the borrower’s loss—and since the borrower was often poor—the moneylender was seen as profiting by exploiting the meek and was therefore regarded as evil.
Now that I read that article, did Jew hatred really spring from such a simple thing? :cry:


Seeing interest referenced positively in the New Testament confused me considering Christians' later viewpoint of it.
I'll give it more thought Harv, thanks for your post :)
 
I think the problem with the parable is we don't know how Servant 1 & Servant 2 doubled their money. They might have robbed people. They might have set up a pyramid scheme. How might it all have gone if they'd actually lost money?
Matthew 25:14-30 RobAnybody Version (RAV)

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his nepotism; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and put them into Mortgage Backed Securities, and not just lost all his money, but collapsed the global economy.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he was doing great flipping houses, until Servant #1 crashed the global economy, so he was, like, at -2 talents.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents was like, Oh Great Dude, I lost all my money & screwed the other two Servants over, but I am Too Big To Fail, please bail me out.

21 His lord said unto him, Aye, thou art indeed Too Big To Fail, here's 20 more talents, tout suite, no strings attached...

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, I was doing great until Servant #1 f'ed me over.

23 His lord said unto him, screw you. No one likes a whiner.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown (actual text, I didn't change that!), and probably inheriting thy wealth, not earning it, but pretending thou did:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth, or maybe just paid my rent & bought food for my kids: but, lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou can go f thyself. You are fired. And also I'm not raising minimum wage. Don't you have bootstraps?

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath 20 talents already.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Weird how the ending of the parable remains the same.
 
Now that I read that article, did Jew hatred really spring from such a simple thing?

Well, I don't know for sure, but I don't think so.

Modern banking, let's remember was begun by the Italians, and not even Italian Jews at that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Medici

And I know of no automatic prejudice against the Italians.

I can see that Jewish people, driven into lending money because they were denied almost every other means of making a living in Europe, may have been extra vilified as a way of escaping repaying them, but I don't think that was the initial source of the prejudice. Else how do you explain why they had to resort to money-lending in the first place?
 
I think the problem with the parable is we don't know how Servant 1 & Servant 2 doubled their money. They might have robbed people. They might have set up a pyramid scheme. How might it all have gone if they'd actually lost money?

Weird how the ending of the parable remains the same.

Indeed. It appears there was an original (Hebrew) variant of this parable of Jesus, where the 1 talent servant wasted the money on luxury expenses, and only the 2 talent servant was rewarded. also note that this particular parable only appears in Matthew, not the presumably earlier gospels.

But compare to what Jesus tells a rich man: to give away all his wealth. Jesus' message was unto the wretched and the outcast: 'Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the earth.'
 
I think the problem with the parable is we don't know how Servant 1 & Servant 2 doubled their money. They might have robbed people. They might have set up a pyramid scheme. How might it all have gone if they'd actually lost money?


Weird how the ending of the parable remains the same.

:lol:

Didn't notice at first that you modified the parable.
 
Jesus was speaking literal when He spoke to the rich man. He was telling a story when He told the parable of the talents.

Also, the New Testament was originally in Greek, not Hebrew. So your "original" in Hebrew--isn't. It's just someone changing up the story to their own tastes yet again.
 
Jesus was speaking literal when He spoke to the rich man. He was telling a story when He told the parable of the talents.

Also, the New Testament was originally in Greek, not Hebrew. So your "original" in Hebrew--isn't. It's just someone changing up the story to their own tastes yet again.

Why would the original New Testament be written in Greek? Wasn't it written in Jerusalem?
 
Because Greek was the lingua franca of the times? So if you knew how to write, you knew how to write in Greek, and reach the widest possible audience?
 
I said there was another version in Hebrew. It means there is some material for comparison here.

Jesus was speaking literal when He spoke to the rich man. He was telling a story when He told the parable of the talents.

Interesting how you miss the point that Jesus words on rich people are quite clear.

Also, the New Testament was originally in Greek, not Hebrew. So your "original" in Hebrew--isn't. It's just someone changing up the story to their own tastes yet again.

This literally makes no sense. First, that the NT was written in Greek has little to do with the origins of the parable. Second, where do you get that conclusion from? We don't know if this was a parable originally told by Jesus or a moral tale not unknown to his audience on which he (according to Matthew) gives a personal twist.

Why would the original New Testament be written in Greek? Wasn't it written in Jerusalem?

First, the NT is a collection of writings by various Christian authors. Why would these authors all gather in Jerusalem to be writing? The NT writings are all the result of proselytizing among a predominantly Greek speaking population. So writing in Greek makes perfect sense.
 
Yea the NT is mostly a bunch of letters written by Paul to the Christian Greeks. Some religions specifically refer to the NT as the "Christian-Greek scriptures" and the OT as the "Hebrew scriptures"

So the point is... Paul would have written in Greek if he was writing to Greeks.

But would he have spoken german to a horse?
 
Yea the NT is mostly a bunch of letters written by Paul to the Christian Greeks. Some religions specifically refer to the NT as the "Christian-Greek scriptures" and the OT as the "Hebrew scriptures"

So the point is... Paul would have written in Greek if he was writing to Greeks.

No, that's not the point. And you seem to have missed out on a few gospels in the NT.
 
Those gospels were also written in greek and directed to a greek-speaking audience. I am sure Sommerswerd knew that part of the new testament are the gospels ;)
 
No, that's not the point. And you seem to have missed out on a few gospels in the NT.
So when I said
the NT is mostly a bunch of letters
which "few gospels" did I accidentally "miss out on"?:confused:
I'm sure. But that's not what my comment was directed at.
So what was your comment directed at? I think I must have missed your point.
But would he have spoken german to a horse?
This sounds funny, and I am sure (or hope at least) that it contains some witty punchline that went over my head:blush: Can you explain it to me?

And thanks for the vote of confidence in your above post:)
 
This sounds funny, and I am sure (or hope at least) that it contains some witty punchline that went over my head:blush: Can you explain it to me?

And thanks for the vote of confidence in your above post:)

It's part of a quote by Charles V

I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse.
 
Because Greek was the lingua franca of the times? So if you knew how to write, you knew how to write in Greek, and reach the widest possible audience?

Greece was the language of the Eastern Roman empire, while Latin was the language of the Western Roman empire. Also there were hundreds of Bibles which were redacted and canonized into orthodoxy (dogma) at the first Nicene council. Of course they would be in Greece, though other documents such as Gnostic texts were purged as heresy.

Those gospels were also written in greek and directed to a greek-speaking audience :mischief:. I am sure Sommerswerd knew that part of the new testament are the gospels ;)

Pay Debts ! :mad:
Pay Taxes ! :mad:

Psalm 37:21
The wicked borrows but does not pay back, but the righteous is generous and gives

Matthew 22:17-21
Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”
 
Pay Debts ! :mad:
Pay Taxes ! :mad:

While these are easy interpretations, there are other conclusions to draw.

I stopped lending money a long time ago. If someone comes looking to borrow, if I have what they need I generally just give it to them. Oddly enough, with it perfectly clear that there is no debt, I find that my money comes back far more regularly with much better return.
 
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