The People vs. Joe Harker
- Thread starter ori
- Start date
In my opinion this is the key questions:
According to our laws he has to state the notice prior to playing and state the time. He did not do that. The initial statement was for a different time that got held up due to legal wrangling. Therefore his TC changed and a new declaration of intent (date/time) needed to be stated. He failed to do that.
Simple Summary: By law you have to state your intent to play 24 hours prior to that intent. If that date/time changes, you must therefore declare a new date/time in order to follow our laws. The Defense did not do that.
- When did the Defense play his TC?
- Did the Defense state he was playing 24 hours prior to his TC?
According to our laws he has to state the notice prior to playing and state the time. He did not do that. The initial statement was for a different time that got held up due to legal wrangling. Therefore his TC changed and a new declaration of intent (date/time) needed to be stated. He failed to do that.
Simple Summary: By law you have to state your intent to play 24 hours prior to that intent. If that date/time changes, you must therefore declare a new date/time in order to follow our laws. The Defense did not do that.
Not that this has to do with this trial, but recall several more polls and judicial requests caused changes. Therefore there was reason to complain and change instructions.
Joe Harker
1st in the Premiership!
Two questions,
1) why did it take so long for anyone to notice that i may have broken the law, most of you must of read the instruction thread?
2) what would be my motive for breaking the law, if I did?
On the second Question, I haven't got a secret agenda, I don't want to be the master over the game, i can just go and play a normal civ 4 game to do that!
It was me just trying to play my first turnchat, I thought that the court lifting it's stay gave me the right to play the save, I gave roughly 1.5 hours notice, no one objected, so i played the save, obivious to the storm that was to come.
1) why did it take so long for anyone to notice that i may have broken the law, most of you must of read the instruction thread?
2) what would be my motive for breaking the law, if I did?
On the second Question, I haven't got a secret agenda, I don't want to be the master over the game, i can just go and play a normal civ 4 game to do that!
It was me just trying to play my first turnchat, I thought that the court lifting it's stay gave me the right to play the save, I gave roughly 1.5 hours notice, no one objected, so i played the save, obivious to the storm that was to come.
Hyronymus
Troop leader
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Failed, failed. I think that's a too heavy word, methos. He didn't announce the actual TC time after the Supreme Court finally ruled but it was obvious that the Defendant was waiting for the Supreme Court to rule. I take anyone with an IQ over 60 to be capable of deducting that from the way the TC topic developed.
In summary I think some people are greatly overexaggerating the graveness of the offence. As I suspect some to misread that I say it again:
In summary I think some people are greatly overexaggerating the graveness of the offence.
That means I don't deny there is an offence but I have serious doubts about the way and even the intention it's being dealt with. I will not deny the Supreme Court and the citizens to use their right ro investigate the adapation of rules by the DP.
At the same time I will stand by and do nothing while the Supreme Court and the citizens to toast,roast and fry someone as a result of a appearently committed violation of the rules. It's a game we're playing, for crying out loud!!!
In summary I think some people are greatly overexaggerating the graveness of the offence. As I suspect some to misread that I say it again:
In summary I think some people are greatly overexaggerating the graveness of the offence.
That means I don't deny there is an offence but I have serious doubts about the way and even the intention it's being dealt with. I will not deny the Supreme Court and the citizens to use their right ro investigate the adapation of rules by the DP.
At the same time I will stand by and do nothing while the Supreme Court and the citizens to toast,roast and fry someone as a result of a appearently committed violation of the rules. It's a game we're playing, for crying out loud!!!
It might have been difficult to find a technical reason to claim a breach of the law. The obvious reason, that a poll was not closed, is not a violation of the law because the law does not refer to poll completion as a condition of play. As we can see from the comments here, the giving of 24 hours notice is subject to different interpretations. It would be necessary to find a plausible interpretation of the events which would show a violation.
My opinion, it also might have been a desire to give all those involved a chance to say that it could have been handled better. To give Donsig credit where due, I must say that he has historically been reluctant at first to bring legal cases. In the Chief Justice appointment incident in Civ4 DG1, a similar delay was allowed, for the involved citizens to voluntarily take the requested actions.
Nobody
Gangster
Why? the law says he must give at least 24 hours notice, he gave more than that, the law doesn't set a maximum amount of time. I think the amount of time between his July 6th and when he played the save to be a sensible amount of time.
.........
Another thing i just thought of, Joe Said on the 6th of July he was going to play the save on monday the 9th. On the 7th you started the poll that caused this whole issue. How come you never Posted in the turnchat thread to tell him about the poll? His job was only to follow the instructions posted in the thread not to chase around polls.
The law also states he must give a time. Saying he'll play it on Monday isn't a set time.
It's common knowlege that only officials can post in the TCIT and even than, they're only supposed to post their instructions. Here lately the TCIT is becoming a discussion thread.
Nobody
Gangster
Nobody
Gangster
He said Monday night. Normally this would be to vague because people could miss the turn chat, but it was a off line game session, no one was going to miss it. All instructions were posted well before turn chat began.
The reason the law requires a time and date is so people can have all the instructions in before the game session is in. All Instructions were in long before he began the game.
Where did he define the time? Night just doesn't cut it for me.
@Joe: In regards to your questions, let me say this. Most of us (including myself) don't know the rules very well. We play just to have fun and don't even look to see if we're doing it correctly. Some on the other hand do, but that's just their thing.
I don't want to see you punished and if a guilty verdict is given, I'll push for no punishment. Afterall, I believe you've more than received punishment, whatever verdict you receive. Also please note that I will gladly vote for you as DP again. Experience is the best way to learn.
Because it seems quite obvious that Joe did break the law here due to the absence of a time of playing, the question now seems to be what is the punishment? (if any is to be made)
This case seems to be of administrative law, specifically Ultra vires, so a temporary injunction would be an appropriate punishment, and some kind of bar from office(s) should be included in the injunction. Of course, it is the jury's job to create an appropriate punishment, but I am just giving some advice to them.
This case seems to be of administrative law, specifically Ultra vires, so a temporary injunction would be an appropriate punishment, and some kind of bar from office(s) should be included in the injunction. Of course, it is the jury's job to create an appropriate punishment, but I am just giving some advice to them.
Nobody
Gangster
actually its the jurys, soon the Chief Judge will close this thread and open a sentencing poll, where all demogame citizens can vote guilty, not guilty or abstain.
Hyronymus
Troop leader
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If that are all the poll options I'll present the poll for investigation to the Supreme Court. After all this public display on this matter I think the citizens have earned the right to determin the nature of the sentence too.
Nobody
Gangster
easy dasiy, first we all vote if he is guilty or not guilty. Then if he is Guilty we all vote on the punishment (which can be no punishment)
ordinaryguy
Back to Civ!
Punishment? What if that drives aspiring DPs away? We're already short of them.
Nobody
Gangster
Don't worry Joe is a innocent man, who volunteered to play the game for us all. The demogame citizens are generally sensible, they can see (as our president and Judge advocate did) that the July 6th post fulfilled the legal requirements and they will find him not guilty.
Mr chief Justice you can open the poll any time now.
donsig
Low level intermediary
I was under the impression that the initial poll I posted would have ended before the save was to be played and IIRC there was a stay in effect at the time the poll was posted anyway. Also, you must remember that a couple hours after my poll was started DaveShack posted a poll to trump mine. I didn't see this poll till several hours after that when I posted the third longbow poll. Also, IIRC, the stay was still in effect at that time.
I agree it is not the DP's job to chase down polls. That's not what this case is about. This is about the DP giving 24 hours notice of playing the save and giving adequate notice of the intent to play the save. That is the DP's job and simply was not done by Joe Harker.
The judicial procedures state that discussion must die down before the poll is opened. I would have thought the judiciary would have realized by now it should not go around saying it's ok to do this or that without first reading the law.
Two reasons. The first is, I've not been very active in the democracy games lately. The reason for my inactivity has been that we have elected officials who do not follow the rules we agreed upon as a group. The second is, the expirimental legal system being used is this game lacks a system of record keeping. There is no one place we can go to and look up laws. It takes alot of digging through old polls to find an initiative. Then one doesn't evenknow if a later initiative has modified the one found!
I know we've had a 24 hour tradition ever since the first or second term of the first Civ III demogame (4 or 5 years ago). Sometimes it's been an explicit written rule, other times it hasn't, but we've always followed it whether it was written or not. The main reason for bringing this case before the people is not to punish you Joe but to ensure you and all future DP's realize this is a serious rule that we all expect to be followed.
1.5 hours is not enough notice Joe. We are a world-wide community. Many of us were sleeping or at work during those 1.5 hours. That's why we've always insisted on 24 hours notice.
No one thinks you have a secret agenda Joe. No one has questioned your motives. But the fact is, you did not give sufficient notice of when you were to play the save. Frankly, I'm surprised you even decided to fight this in a trial since the case against you is so obvious. Be that as it may, you might still win a not guilty verdict because so many see you as the victim here and in their minds a guilty vote is a vote for punishing you, despite the fact that the ascertation of guilt and punishment are two separate processes.
Falcon02
General
I feel the need to put my two cents into this conversation (normally I steer clear of such legal arguments).
The law requires a DP to post a time and along with a date. This is not just for simply for allowing people to attend the turnchat, but so that there's a clear time where polls absolutely must be done by (or at least final votes must be in).
That said, it's a shame people didn't pick up on the lack of a precise time when the thread was up. People were just too occupied with the polling controversy at the time to notice Joe's oversight.
Now, that's not just Joe's failure, that's the people's failure. The people should always be looking for any legal and gameplay oversights by officials (including DP's) and pointing them out to the officials before it becomes irreversible. This was especially true since this was Joe's first game session.
The law requires a DP to post a time and along with a date. This is not just for simply for allowing people to attend the turnchat, but so that there's a clear time where polls absolutely must be done by (or at least final votes must be in).
That said, it's a shame people didn't pick up on the lack of a precise time when the thread was up. People were just too occupied with the polling controversy at the time to notice Joe's oversight.
Now, that's not just Joe's failure, that's the people's failure. The people should always be looking for any legal and gameplay oversights by officials (including DP's) and pointing them out to the officials before it becomes irreversible. This was especially true since this was Joe's first game session.
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