The Plant civ - Ideas thread

[MagisterCultuum]

Kael has stated that plants in Erebus don't require sunlight, because a ritual in one of his D&D campaigns blotted out the sun for a few years and would have meant everyone would starve otherwise. Of course, said campaign is not canon.

I think they still need water, but it has not officially been stated. Danalin and Sucellus were good friends when the later was god of nature.


The nature of the precept of Earth is hard but productive labor, and especially reaping the benefits thereof. One of Kilmorph's roles actually is that of an agricultural deity, the goddess of the harvest. It probably wouldn't apply to wild plants though.


Creation would fit a plant civ more than life, unless perhaps you specify they are only asexual plants. If they have flowers or sprout from seeds, Amathaon is very important.


Life is about tenacity, the courage to be defeated and make a comeback. One reason Sucellus got the sphere was to help plants recover after the hard winter. Coming back into bloom after a dormant winter is in the life sphere. Life is appropriate if these plants are perennials, but not if annuals.

Nature is about gradual growth or maturation.




Nature/Creation/Life seems most appropriate for a plant civ.

 

[KrugSmash]

Sorry to butt in, but what exactly *is* creation mana? I don't recall seeing such a thing in FfH2, Orbis, or Lena.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It is not implemented in FfH, but I was under the impression that it had been added to Orbis. I haven't played it in a long time though so I don't know for sure. It has been added in FF, although I'm not a big fan of its implementation. (Fertility changing one resource for another does not make any sense at all. I tend to think at least one spell should represent artistic creativity or genius rather than all physical fertility.)

 

[A Golden Dragon]

we don't have creation mana in Orbis/LENA

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i do think that what Magister said is the most appropriate. sun and earth dont fit, water would, but i cant see water walking plants casting tsunami.

i think

Nature/life/creation
Nature/Nature/Life
Nature/life/water

would be the most appropriate combinations.

 

[Opera]

Thanks again for you input MagisterCultuum
Would you mind reminding us (again) how you implemented the Creation sphere in your mod?

I think I'm going for Nature/Life/Creation. I'm convinced by what Magister said However, I worry about the Creation sphere; as MC, I don't really like how it is in FF...

Naval line: they would need a Work Boat replacement, maybe Water Lilies. They wouldn't be able to create Fishing Boats but they would have a special interaction with the Wrecks one can find in the seas. They could 'Animate the Wreck', effectively using magic to grow and manipulate the remnants of the ship. Then, you would have a 'Living Wreck' unit; either you'd go exploring with it either you'd bring it back to a city and cast a 'Settle' spell, making the wreck stay in the city as a building... giving 'birth' to other ships afterwards (they would be built using food, as settlers and workers).

The only way to get 'advanced' naval units would be to get a Living Wreck and to put it in a city.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I've implemented it a few different ways in different versions.

Generally I have Creation I be Fertility, which is basically the same as FF's Growth. (The name Growth would clearly apply to the Nature sphere instead of Creation. The name fertility makes no sense a spell that turns one food resource into another as in FF, and converting resources instead of making new ones has nothing to do with creation.)

Creation II is often Inspiration. The building is made to allow a free specialist slot of every time, and to boost GPP rate. Mind I is given something else, but I'm not a big fan of the alternatives I made for Mind, which is an impediment to a fully implemented Creation spell. Maybe it would be better to keep inspiration as it is and call this new spell Genius instead. Sometimes I instead add a spell life FF's Birth spell here or move Vitalize from Nature III to Creation II. (I always give Nature III Summon Guardian Vines, but that is usually a second spell instead of a replacement for Vitalize.)

Creation III is generally Prodigious Birth, which causes the birth of a random great person in a random city of a random civ. (I had this code working fine but then somehow broke it and haven't figured out how to fix it yet.) I'm also open to spells that boost the plot's food yields directly in python, or to ones that create random new resources out of nothing.

Feel free to come up with different spells within the theme though. I may even borrow them.


Kael has stated that the precept of Creation pushes the boundaries of what is possible with magic to its furthest limits, making this sphere the most powerful form of magic in Erebus...when it works. It just so happens that Creation magic is also the least reliable sphere magic. It may be appropriate to make Creation spells overpowered compared to other spheres, but also ad a high miscast chance.

I also tend to think that skill in this sphere is almost entirely innate, so training doesn't help much. That fits with Amathaon's habit of giving out blessings haphazardly, with no regard for who worships him. To me he seems about as chaotic as Camulos, but his is a creative chaos from which new forms of order emerge rather than a destructive chaos that seeks to destroy all order. (I imagine that Earth magic is likely on the opposite end, as a form of magic that almost anyone can learn to do relatively but which never comes without considerable practice.) I've toyed with the idea of making it impossible to learn Creation sphere spells though xp, but letting even normal adepts occasionally be blessed with the top level of the sphere. Given that the works of Creation tend to be unique instead of mass produced, I've considered making several possible randomly given spell-granting creation-mana-requiring promotions instead of having the standard 3 levels of a spell sphere and specific spells associated with it.

 

[Opera]

I like your idea of innate ability and "randomly given spell-granting creation-mana-requiring promotions". Might go this road.

Fertility creates a building boosting food, right?

Anyway, I'm gonna try to think about some other interesting creation spells, with the "randomly given spell-granting creation-mana-requiring promotions" in mind, rather than the 3 levels system.

(And feel free to post any idea here too )

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I think I'm going for Nature/Life/Creation.

yay

However, I worry about the Creation sphere; as MC, I don't really like how it is in FF...

me too im sure we can come up with something appropriate here

Naval line: they would need a Work Boat replacement, maybe Water Lilies. They wouldn't be able to create Fishing Boats but they would have a special interaction with the Wrecks one can find in the seas. They could 'Animate the Wreck', effectively using magic to grow and manipulate the remnants of the ship. Then, you would have a 'Living Wreck' unit; either you'd go exploring with it either you'd bring it back to a city and cast a 'Settle' spell, making the wreck stay in the city as a building... giving 'birth' to other ships afterwards (they would be built using food, as settlers and workers).

The only way to get 'advanced' naval units would be to get a Living Wreck and to put it in a city.

i like this. the problem is that ship wrecks arent very common. perhaps have a small chance of a ship wreck being formed after another (non-living) ship dies?

It just so happens that Creation magic is also the least reliable sphere magic.

surely it is far more reliable than Chaos???

----------------

I like the idea of Prodigious Birth. but perhaps it would be better if there was a chance of your civ (and other civs) spawning the GP based on the number of units you (and your opponents) have that knows Creation magic. that way youd have some measure of control over it.

I also like Fertility, but i propose giving it a few abilities (like vitalize) depending on a few circumstances:
Fertility when cast in a city: acts the same as Growth in FF
Fertility when cast on a farm: instantly upgrades the farm to an 'Amathon's Farm' which gives an additional +1 food. if at all possible make the caster only able to cast this on ONE farm at a time, until it is destroyed (similar to linking a summon to its caster) or untill they cast the spell on a farm again.
Fertility when cast on a (insert Re Ki equivilent of farm): instantly upgrades the (insert Re Ki equivilent of farm) to a '(insert Re Ki equivilent of farm) of Dy' which gives an additional +1 food. if at all possible make the caster only able to cast this on ONE improvement at a time, until it is destroyed (similar to linking a summon to its caster) or untill they cast the spell on a farm again.
Fertility when cast on a river with no features: turns the tile into a floodplains.
Fertility when cast on a forest (Re K only): turns the forest into Forests of Eternity.

however if we do this i think Fertility should be a level 2 spell at least. all those possibilities is a big benefit for a single spell)

another *quite powerful* spell, something like 'Call of Amathon', is to make it summon a permanent, random creature from the age of magic. such as an aifon, centaur, lamia, etc etc.

EDIT:
other spells could include:
Create Great Work: cast only in cities, small % chance of triggering a short golden age for you civ (3-5 turns?) if it dosnt trigger a golden age just have it provide a chunk of culture to the city, give it a brief cooldown period too.
Awaken Genius: turns the caster into a random great person, grants all units in the casters stack some EXP.
Aura of Creativity: add a promotion of the same name to the caster which gives cities within 3 squares of the bearer +15% building production, -15% unit production, +2 culture, +10% GPP. disable spellcasting while active, but alow a 'stop aura' spell to be cast (or just give it a set duration).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

surely it is far more reliable than Chaos???

Well...with chaos you know you'll get rather random, probably destructive results. With Creation you have a pretty good idea of the goal, but more often than not it just won't work and there is not much you can do about it. The miscast results aren't generally dangerous, just really disappointing. (As Amathaon is a god of childbirth, the failure of Creation Magic is analogous to a woman having a miscarriage. Miscarriages are much more common than successful childbirth, for some more then others, and can be emotionally devastating especially in the late term cases but are most frequent too early for the women to even know to expect a child.) You can always count on Chaos to do the unexpected, whereas Creation generally either fails or succeeds beyond you wildest dreams.

I like the idea of Prodigious Birth. but perhaps it would be better if there was a chance of your civ (and other civs) spawning the GP based on the number of units you (and your opponents) have that knows Creation magic. that way youd have some measure of control over it.

I also like Fertility, but i propose giving it a few abilities (like vitalize) depending on a few circumstances:
Fertility when cast in a city: acts the same as Growth in FF
Fertility when cast on a farm: instantly upgrades the farm to an 'Amathon's Farm' which gives an additional +1 food. if at all possible make the caster only able to cast this on ONE farm at a time, until it is destroyed (similar to linking a summon to its caster) or untill they cast the spell on a farm again.
Fertility when cast on a (insert Re Ki equivilent of farm): instantly upgrades the (insert Re Ki equivilent of farm) to a '(insert Re Ki equivilent of farm) of Dy' which gives an additional +1 food. if at all possible make the caster only able to cast this on ONE improvement at a time, until it is destroyed (similar to linking a summon to its caster) or untill they cast the spell on a farm again.

I'm pretty sure that it is not possible to link units to improvements the way they can be linked to other units.

It would probably be better to instead make the new improvement upgrade to a normal farm after a few turns, maybe only when worked like villages or maybe even when not like forts.

another *quite powerful* spell, something like 'Call of Amathon', is to make it summon a permanent, random creature from the age of magic. such as an aifon, centaur, lamia, etc etc.

I don't think this fits Creation. Aifons were humans who changed due to their closeness to Danalin, while the other creatures were monstrosities created by merging preexistant creatures together with the aid of body and life magic. This spell wouldn't be creating anything new, just bringing something back from that past. That doesn't fit Creation at all. It would make more sense for Life, or for Dimensional as Ceridwen hid many creatures that went extinct in Erebus in other pocket dimensions.

EDIT:
other spells could include:
Create Great Work: cast only in cities, small % chance of triggering a short golden age for you civ (3-5 turns?) if it dosnt trigger a golden age just have it provide a chunk of culture to the city, give it a brief cooldown period too.
Awaken Genius: turns the caster into a random great person, grants all units in the casters stack some EXP.
Aura of Creativity: add a promotion of the same name to the caster which gives cities within 3 squares of the bearer +15% building production, -15% unit production, +2 culture, +10% GPP. disable spellcasting while active, but alow a 'stop aura' spell to be cast (or just give it a set duration).

Those seem ok.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I don't think this fits Creation. Aifons were humans who changed due to their closeness to Danalin, while the other creatures were monstrosities created by merging preexistant creatures together with the aid of body and life magic. This spell wouldn't be creating anything new, just bringing something back from that past. That doesn't fit Creation at all. It would make more sense for Life, or for Dimensional as Ceridwen hid many creatures that went extinct in Erebus in other pocket dimensions.

ahh i didnt know all that fair enough.

 

[Opera]

Ship wrecks

I found them common enough. I always seem to encounter one...
But I like your idea. Ships sinking on coasts should probably spawn a Ship Wreck... Now, how to do it? By creating a "Ship" promotion, maybe an effect one, and run a PyOnDeath? Although I'm pretty sure Ahwaric removed this tag. Can't seriously understand why he did this though...

Spells

I like Create Great Work, Awaken Genius, Prodigious Birth (but without control) and Aura of Creativity (but only for one city).

I'm not sure yet how I will make them pop with a random Creation spell...

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I found them common enough. I always seem to encounter one...

one isnt really enough if they are the only source of Re Ki ships though. perhaps the shipwreck spawning is different in Orbis, but i only ever tend to get 1 or 2 ship wrecks every other game, usually miles from my start loaction. but that was with FF.

I'm not sure yet how I will make them pop with a random Creation spell...

you could pinch some of the Mobius Witch code, and make each Creation spell its own promotion. ie instead of Creation 1, 2 and 3, have the promos named after the spells. then you could run a check whenever an arcane unit is built to check how much creation mana is present. if there is 1 creation mana select one random spell from the spell list. if there are 2 creation mana secelt 2 random spells. possibly only to a max of 3 spells at 3 creation mana.

how many spells do you think you need for it?

 

[Opera]

one isnt really enough if they are the only source of Re Ki ships though. perhaps the shipwreck spawning is different in Orbis, but i only ever tend to get 1 or 2 ship wrecks every other game, usually miles from my start loaction. but that was with FF.

I would have to check. Perhaps I could tweak FlavourMod to spawn more Wrecks around the Re Ki, if only to provide them with at least one boat.

you could pinch some of the Mobius Witch code, and make each Creation spell its own promotion. ie instead of Creation 1, 2 and 3, have the promos named after the spells. then you could run a check whenever an arcane unit is built to check how much creation mana is present. if there is 1 creation mana select one random spell from the spell list. if there are 2 creation mana secelt 2 random spells. possibly only to a max of 3 spells at 3 creation mana.

Hmmm, yeah, good thinking. So I would use 'onUnitBuilt' (or is it created?).

how many spells do you think you need for it?

I think 9 would be a good start.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

so if we need 9 creation spells at least, we should have an even spread of *power*. ie 3 potential level 1 spells, 3 potential level 2 spells and 3 potential level 3 spells:

(listed in power level that i think is appropriate, with a few more ideas for spells thrown in)

1. ( level 1) Fertility: which stores 15% more food and gives +1 health from all food resources.
2. ( level 1) Creative Flare: make it the same as the sodiers of kilmorph building rushing ability, but weaker and not killing the caster. also throw in a small ammount of culture like a priest of leaves. give it a brief cooldown period to prevent abuse.
3. ( level 1) Create Pixie Swarm*: summons a permanent strength 3+1 poison unit with flying, ignore terrain movement penalties, Nature 1, Shadow 1 and one random creation spell.
4. ( level 2) Aura of Creativity: add a promotion of the same name to the caster which gives cities the city the unit is in +15% building production, -15% unit production, +2 culture, +10% GPP. disable spellcasting while active, but alow a 'stop aura' spell to be cast (or just give it a set duration). alternatively have it create a building in the city ofthe same name with the same effect that requires the caster.
5. ( level 2) Seeds of Creation: Acts the same as the 'Prospect' spell from Orbis (including limitations) but if cast on flatlands it creates a wheat, corn, rice, flax, wine, cotton, resource on the tile. if cast in forests it creates olives, spices, tea, silk, duskwood, reagents. if cast in Jungle it creates Sugar, banana, dyes, coffee, reagents. if cast in hell terrain, creates razorweed.
6. ( level 2) Create Pseudo-Dragon*: summons a permanent strength 3+3 poison animal unit with flying, ignore terrain movement penalties, 'Defensive' and 'guardsman' promotions.
7. ( level 3) Awaken Genius: turns the caster into a random great person, grants all units in the casters stack some EXP.
8. ( level 3) Create Great Work: cast only in cities, small % chance of triggering a short golden age for you civ (3-5 turns?) if it dosnt trigger a golden age just have it provide a chunk of culture to the city, give it a brief cooldown period too.
9. ( level 3) Prodigious Birth causes the birth of a random great person in a random city of a random civ (i still think civs with higher levels of creation mana should have higher chances of them spawning in their lands, maybe also give it a cooldown period).

* taken from Kaels Beastiary of Erebus

Amathaon
Couatl- The snake is the symbol of Amathaon and the Couatl, a winged snake, is his preferred messenger.
Eurabatres, the Gold Dragon (unique)- Hidden in creation Eurabatres is the most powerful of the Dragons, and the most difficult to wake from slumber.
Pixie- Pixies were created by Amathaon to tend to his gardens. Since Amathaon has retreated from creation they have been left behind and have spread out to any place that features beautiful flowers. Pixies have some magical powers but they mostly relate to simple illusions or the health of plants. They tend to distrust humans except for small children, who they sometimes protect or play with. One or two pixies sometimes abandon their gardens and move into more populated areas, preferring to live in the homes of artists or inventors. They are fascinated by new creations and are known to help with designs and projects when the artist is away or sleeping.
Pseudo-dragon- These dragons are barely larger than a house cat. They have a poisonous stinger on the end of their tail which is a formidable defense. Pseudo-dragons are favored as friends of good human and elven mages for their loyal and pleasant personalities.

EDIT: Creation mana should also give +5% GPP as a cumulative effect.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I was bored after doing a batch of assignments, so i whipped this up for a Ve or something for the Re Ki tell me what you think. itll be very easy to make changes.

EDIT: i made a mushroom village as well (based off that concept pic that Opera found)

 

[A Golden Dragon]

nice

 

[Valkrionn]

I was bored after doing a batch of assignments, so i whipped this up for a Ve or something for the Re Ki tell me what you think. itll be very easy to make changes.

EDIT: i made a mushroom village as well (based off that concept pic that Opera found)

If Opera doesn't use the Mushroom Village, I will... As a Myconid lair.

 

[Opera]

Oh, wow, really nice, P_L! Any way to take screens of those ingame? Might be cumbersome to do, I don't know... But I'd like to see

Now to answer your other post:

1. ( level 1) Fertility: which stores 15% more food and gives +1 health from all food resources.

Hm. Could work. Brings something in my mind though: what if the Re Ki had no population unhealth? I can't explain why, I just feel it.

2. ( level 1) Creative Flare: make it the same as the sodiers of kilmorph building rushing ability, but weaker and not killing the caster. also throw in a small ammount of culture like a priest of leaves. give it a brief cooldown period to prevent abuse.

Hmmm... I'm not sure how to do it without killing the unit... except by using a spell, which could work. I'm not sure if it's a good idea gameplay wise, though. Perhaps a 'building-tied-to-caster-presence' granting a prod modifier and culture modifier?

3. ( level 1) Create Pixie Swarm*: summons a permanent strength 3+1 poison unit with flying, ignore terrain movement penalties, Nature 1, Shadow 1 and one random creation spell.

Nice one. Would have the Re Ki race though; so that if you fight them with such a unit, you're likely to have it switch sides...

4. ( level 2) Aura of Creativity: add a promotion of the same name to the caster which gives cities the city the unit is in +15% building production, -15% unit production, +2 culture, +10% GPP. disable spellcasting while active, but alow a 'stop aura' spell to be cast (or just give it a set duration). alternatively have it create a building in the city ofthe same name with the same effect that requires the caster.

The building way is much easier to do

5. ( level 2) Seeds of Creation: Acts the same as the 'Prospect' spell from Orbis (including limitations) but if cast on flatlands it creates a wheat, corn, rice, flax, wine, cotton, resource on the tile. if cast in forests it creates olives, spices, tea, silk, duskwood, reagents. if cast in Jungle it creates Sugar, banana, dyes, coffee, reagents. if cast in hell terrain, creates razorweed.

I have to say I don't like this kind of spells, though... But maybe a 'special Re Ki' one that kills the caster but gives a chance to every non-bonus tile in a 3x3 area to pop a resource?

6. ( level 2) Create Pseudo-Dragon*: summons a permanent strength 3+3 poison animal unit with flying, ignore terrain movement penalties, 'Defensive' and 'guardsman' promotions.

I wouldn't give it 'ignore terrain movement penalties' though.

7. ( level 3) Awaken Genius: turns the caster into a random great person, grants all units in the casters stack some EXP.

I like this one.

8. ( level 3) Create Great Work: cast only in cities, small % chance of triggering a short golden age for you civ (3-5 turns?) if it dosnt trigger a golden age just have it provide a chunk of culture to the city, give it a brief cooldown period too.

This one is nice too.

9. ( level 3) Prodigious Birth causes the birth of a random great person in a random city of a random civ (i still think civs with higher levels of creation mana should have higher chances of them spawning in their lands, maybe also give it a cooldown period).

Nice again!

And yeah, +5%/creation mana seems good!

If Opera doesn't use the Mushroom Village

I will

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The Fertility building should actually grant food rather than just store it. I tend to think that Kuriotate Settlements with this spell building in them should be able to have a population of 2 or 3 rather than starving down to 1.


Letting a spell directly add production (and probably also food, culture, etc.) without killing it is quite easy in python. It could be tough to teach the AI to use though.



I tend to think that Pixies should be extremely weak. I'd prefer the spell make multiple units of only strength 1 rather than a single unit with strength 4. If you use python (as may be needed anyway to give them spell spheres) could make the number of pixies it summons be random, perhaps tied to the caster level and with the lore appropriate risk that the spell won't summon anything. I tend to think that Water I, Life I, Creation I, and Mind I could be on the list of possible spells instead of just Nature I and Shadow I. My suggestions would probably make it too strong to be a level 1 spell.



I'd imagine that pseudo-dragons would have the Dragon racial promotion (including the Fear ability immunity to fear that goes with it), but would be quite weak units (about the strength P_L gave his pixies). I also imagine that they can fly only about as well as domesticated chickens, which is not enough to give them the flying promotion (and associated flat movement costs) which all the real dragons should have.