The Pledge

Seig heil comrade!

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That's not disturbing AT ALL. Which one is American and which one is Nazi Germany? Can you tell?

You're being trivial about a serious topic. Of course when the up in the air salute was used, as in the first picture, there was no history of Naziism to sully that particular gesture. Your argument is on the level of "Hitler had two legs and FDR had two legs, therefor FDR was like Hitler." Sadly, your argument has no legs. It's all about as disturbing as seeing backwards swastikas on the 17th century temples in India. If one is an ignoramus, it might give one a momentary chuckle.

The older picture shows kids saluting from the heart. It's what they do in Mexico, among other republics, today. So, no, to the informed reader, it's not disturbing either.
 
I don't see why we should've abandoned a perfectly fine salute just because the fascists came along later and spoiled it.
 
I'm glad you got the joke -- I was afraid I was being a bit too subtle there.
 
Oh. My tone-metre is way off right now. :crazyeye:

Five in the morning, you are not my friend. :(
 
I disagree; rituals matter and they never have "no overt meaning." Human communities are rife with little rituals that exist primarily for building connections between the people in a community as well as bonding people to the community at large. The relationship, the bonds, that I have with a friend in my social is different from the relationship that a child has with the government that protects her rights, sustains her security, and provides her education free of charge. So the cementing rituals will be, obviously, different rituals.

Our relationships are less formal than our social contracts with our various governments, and so they'll have less formality in them. The rituals you go through with your friends are personalized, customized to how yall get along. But that doesn't make them unimportant. Rituals build connections and connections sustain friendships past the natural frictions that occur whenever your interest or values might come into conflict.

Personal social rituals exist to help only my personal relationships. The relationship of the citizen with the state is the very foundation of sustaining liveable communities. Both rituals have overt meanings, even if the Pledge is more important. Less is riding on one interpersonal relationship, but that's not to say that it doesn't matter. Having a resilient circle of friends can make a huge difference in someone's life--although it would be on a different scale than one's relationship with a government.

I don't agree that the citizen has some kind of foundational relationship with the state or that this is essential to the functioning of society; surely what is foundational is the relationship of the individual to society, rather than the state. It makes me very uncomfortable to think of "the state" as something that I enter into a relationship with, let alone a relationship that is supposed to be foundational to all other relationships, let alone a relationship that is to be expressed in a daily public ritual. Perhaps I cannot intellectualise this other than saying that to me that just smacks of fascism. And I know it's not fascism and I also know that "slippery slope" type arguments are not good. But I don't like it, and that's all I can say. I would never, ever make such a "pledge" - every fibre in my being recoils against it - and even less would I ever expect a child to make it. It goes against every concept of morality that makes any sense to me.

Apart from anything else, it's surely clear that in fact pledges of this kind are not necessary to make society or the state work. You say that it's just a ritual no different in kind from the little rituals that express relationships at the personal level. But most countries don't have such rituals at all, do they? Or do they? I'm sure we don't in Britain. Perhaps once upon a time we did, when people stood for the national anthem in cinemas and things like that, but we certainly don't now. Does that make our society or our state less strong or less good? Indeed, isn't it the case that the US has a very strong tradition of extreme mistrust of the government? Isn't that what the "tea party" and such movements are, in part, about? Perhaps these things are over-reported (in fact I'm sure they are), but still, it strikes me as odd that the country that instils this "pledge" in its children and which sees it as foundational to a strong relationship between the individual and the state should be the country above all where people seem to dislike their state and want to have as little to do with it as they can.

It strikes me as reasonable and just that the government ask that a child pledge allegiance to our form of government, of which the flag is only a token. This makes sense because this child will be expected as an adult in the future to sustain that form of government so that future generations of Americans can also enjoy the rights and benefits that she as a child is now enjoying. We all have a covenant with future generations to pass along to them a workable, liveable world. Establishing among today's children a sense of being part of that covenant is necessary for sustaining that covenant with the future by sustaining the government that exists to carry out that covenant. This is at the heart of how societies maintain their values over time.

But it's not just a pledge to a particular form of government, but to a particular country. As I said before, what does this pledge of allegiance mean? Does it mean that the child is promising always to support and prefer republican forms of government over others? So is the child promising never to become a British citizen? What's the value of this? Or what does it mean? I don't see how you can claim that this isn't indoctrination of some kind. Certainly, indoctrination of the view that republicanism is better than alternative forms of government may be pretty mild or benevolent indoctrination, but isn't that what it is?

What people have a responsibility to do is to sustain society in such a way that future generations, if there are any, will be all right. (I would call that a responsibility, not a "covenant", since one surely cannot have a covenant with people who don't yet exist.) I don't see that they have a responsibility to sustain the state or a particular form of government to do that. And indeed, surely the founders of the United States didn't think that they did, given that they removed themselves from the aegis of one state and form of government and set up a new one of their own invention. (We are still in the History Forum, after all...)

Is this particular flag pledge ritual indispensable? No, it's just a ritual. Maybe someone could come up with a better one. But the very existence and unchanging nature of rituals is part of their strength. If you monkey around with them, they become less important. Rituals have a concrete value: they reinforce social bonds; they communicate social norms; they remind us that there's a larger purpose going on with each day's smaller actions. The absence of ritual exposes those important social bonds to neglect, if they're taken for granted. So ritual is needed; ritual matters.

Yes, but the problem then is that if you view this particular ritual in this way, what are you saying about those who choose not to participate? Are you saying that their social bonds are weaker, that they don't believe in larger purposes? That they are, in fact, less good or less useful members of society? You can't have it both ways: you can't say, on the one hand, that this is an essential ritual which reflects and reinforces the strength of society, and also on the other, that it's completely voluntary and no stigma is attached to not participating. Rituals don't work like that. And that, I suppose, is one of the reasons why I am instinctively repelled from such things, because I see them as, deep down, bullying. They aim, deliberately or not, at removing people's individuality and personal choice and at identifying those who are different as problematic. There may, overtly, be a choice whether to participate or not, but by providing the ritual in the first place and encouraging its performance, the authorities make that choice harder. It makes me think of being instructed to cheer for our team on school sports day. Bullying, authoritative for the sake of it, with no purpose or point to it. If people are going to cheer, or favour one form of government over another, they should do so spontaneously because it's what they actually believe, not because the authorities are telling them to do so.

As a purely philosophical statement, the Pledge to the American flag is pretty bland. You salute the flag and commit to a republican form of government. That's all there is to it.

Well, as I say, that's still contentious; I don't understand what it means for a child to "commit to a republican form of government". And surely there are also references to the United States itself, not to mention God. I wouldn't call that philosophically bland.

But even at that, it's still permissible to opt out. Lots of kids do. It doesn't bother me, because they've at least thought about what they're doing--and a questioning public serves the purposes of a republic anyway.

Right. But in that case it's robbed of its purpose as a social bonding ritual, isn't it? As I said above, it can't be a social bonding ritual and completely optional; if it's to be the former then there must be at least pressure to conform to it, and if there isn't such pressure, then it's not much good at enforcing social cohesion - indeed a ritual in which most people don't participate would actively discourage it and act as a symbol of rebellion. Or put it like this: would you be prepared to follow the pledge ritual with a second ritual in which children are invited to pledge allegiance to nothing and no-one, and make that similarly optional?
 
That's not disturbing AT ALL. Which one is American and which one is Nazi Germany? Can you tell?

I'd like to think the Swastikas give it away.

BuckyRea, great posts, by the way.
 
I don't agree that the citizen has some kind of foundational relationship with the state or that this is essential to the functioning of society; surely what is foundational is the relationship of the individual to society, rather than the state.

In the practical world, that's a pretty important distinction. But, again, I refer you to Locke's contract theory. The state is an organ of the society. The state is how the society organizes itself; how it gets things done. The state, by which I mean the governmental apparatus that tends to the public affairs of the society, is an active expression of the will of the society.

That means that the citizen does have a primary relationship with the state. Having a society around me might give me social purpose and an opportunity to earn a living in a nonagricultural pursuit. But the state is the thing I pay my taxes to and the thing that paves the roads I drive to my job and the thing that organizes an army to protect me.

Now, I'm talking in some very highfalutin ideals here. Obviously many states do not represent the interests or the wills of the societies they control. They are not "of the people and by the people." They are the oppressors for much, if not most, of the world.

Those of us in the industrialized west have lived two generations now without the threat of military conquest or occupation or oppressive tyranny. That's not typical. But for the lucky few in the First World, it was the state, not society, that made this abnormal level of security and stability a reality. That, I would have to argue, makes for a foundational relationship. I pay taxes and get protection for my pursuit of happiness in return. I surrender some of my rights, as Locke put it, and get a host of other rights of mine protected.


Perhaps I cannot intellectualise this other than saying that to me that just smacks of fascism. And I know it's not fascism and I also know that "slippery slope" type arguments are not good. But I don't like it, and that's all I can say.

I don't think that there's going to ever be a marked division between what's fascistic and what's legitimate expressions of national loyalty--or between fascism and policies designed to protect national security. It's a sliding scale, like that between being a devoted Manchester United fan and being a soccer hooligan. It's a slope, but I don't think it's a slippery one.

I'd think instead of the difference between the surface of Jupiter and the atmosphere of Jupiter. Unlike the surface of 60% of Earth, there's probably not a big splash when you transition from atmosphere to below the surface. The borderline of difference isn't perfectly defined. This makes it the stuff of cultural differences. For me, saying the Pledge isn't too much of a hat tip to the government that protects (and employs) me. For you it is. That debate about what is and isn't acceptable is vital to the survival of a free society.

But as you point out, generations of Britons once stood for the warbling of "GStQ" and even bowed and ma'amed about Her Madge with narry a hint of fascism. Indeed, the generation that put down fascism for the long count had a lot of rituals and societal norms and cult of personality deference to the lucky sperm crowd that ruled over them.

It's a matter of taste, of cultural differences, whether one finds these rituals harmless or abhorrent. The pledge doesn't threaten liberty. It sprung from a milieu that encouraged and expanded liberty. It was a composed by a man who wanted to see liberty spread. It was composed with the intention of being a support for the continuance of liberty and justice for all.

Most critics of the Pledge get worked up about the "under God" language--an admittedly silly tack on--and pay no heed to the crescendo of the ritual: "with liberty and justice for all." Given my druthers, I'd just as well do without the business. But it is a ritual with a clear meaning and it is asked of a people who do nearly nothing else to explicitly acknowledge the importance of the state that provides them their education & security.

We're often accused of being a selfish generation. There's an self preening little Ayn Rand lurking even in the most decent and thoughtful of us. Other than voting and paying our annual income taxes, Americans don't do much by way of secular rituals to consecrate the relationship between the state and ourselves. I don't think the Pledge is horrible because I don't see the harm in it.

I know that somewhere (not particularly in sight, but somewhere) my life as a citizen of this particular union of states is better because of the values that lurk behind that ritual. It doesn't bother me if people don't get into it. But I do wish there were more frequent reminders about, somewhere in our society, about what all that liberty and justice and equality under the law business was supposed to really mean. I worry that we're losing sight of that meaning as a society. I think the Pledge can be an oar in the water pulling in the opposite, saner direction.

You raise other points, that I'd like to address when I get the time. But I've already written too long here.
 
bureaucrats telling children to pledge their allegiance to the state's god is an establishment of religion
and violates their religious liberty too :goodjob:
 
bureaucrats telling children to pledge their allegiance to the state's god is an establishment of religion

I disagree. A philosophical premise of the founding of the United States supposes that there is a God who cares about justice on earth. It's not an establishment of religion, but of a belief that pertains to religion; and such a fundamental one, at that, that this isn't a credible reason to stop the practice. It's no more a violation of religious conscience than the prohibition against thievery is against somebody whose religious belief is that property is a crime.
 
I disagree. A philosophical premise of the founding of the United States supposes that there is a God who cares about justice on earth.

I don't agree with that at all. The philosophical premise of the founding generation was Deistic, springing from the wonderfully cynical Enlightenment, which supposes that there is a God who doesn't give a crap about justice on earth.

Of course the Framers were not of a single philosophical mindset. George Mason, uniquely, argued that God would punish inartful nations in this life, as they couldn't be punished in the next. But everything that Madison, Hamilton, Washington, and Sherman did and emplaced in the Constitution (to which Mason dissented) spoke of a strongly secular and non-theistic set of understandings of how governments ought to work.
 
I don't agree with that at all. The philosophical premise of the founding generation was Deistic, springing from the wonderfully cynical Enlightenment, which supposes that there is a God who doesn't give a crap about justice on earth.

False. Read this article: "Civil Religion in America" by Robert Bellah. Here's an excerpt:

"The words and acts of the founding fathers, especially the first few presidents, shaped the form and tone of the civil religion as it has been maintained ever since. Though much is selectively derived from Christianity, this religion is clearly not itself Christianity. For one thing, neither Washington nor Adams nor Jefferson mentions Christ in his inaugural address; nor do any of the subsequent presidents, although not one of them fails to mention God.[iii] The God of the civil religion is not only rather "unitarian," he is also on the austere side, much more related to order, law, and right than to salvation and love. Even though he is somewhat deist in cast, he is by no means simply a watchmaker God. He is actively interested and involved in history, with a special concern for America. Here the analogy has much less to do with natural law than with ancient Israel; the equation of America with Israel in the idea of the "American Israel" is not infrequent.[iv] What was implicit in the words of Washington already quoted becomes explicit in Jefferson's second inaugural when he said: "I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our fathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life." Europe is Egypt; America, the promised land. God has led his people to establish a new sort of social order that shall be a light unto all the nations.[v]"
 
I disagree. A philosophical premise of the founding of the United States supposes that there is a God who cares about justice on earth. It's not an establishment of religion, but of a belief that pertains to religion; and such a fundamental one, at that, that this isn't a credible reason to stop the practice. It's no more a violation of religious conscience than the prohibition against thievery is against somebody whose religious belief is that property is a crime.

It wasn't the Founders who gave us the Pledge, it was a nat'l socialist around 1900... Coercing children into pledging their allegiance to someone else's "religious belief", especially such a "fundamental one", establishes religion - it aint the state's job to "ask" for our allegiance to its god(s). And you say it aint a violation of religious conscience? Early Christians were executed for refusing to pledge their allegiance to Rome's gods... Sounds like they thought such a pledge violated their religious conscience. And stealing does not fit the definition of freedom, neither does the Pledge. You guys need to drop these analogies and debate the facts, it sounds like you've just equated religious freedom with stealing and some "silly twit" equated coercing children into daily loyalty oaths to the state's god with a simple greeting like hello.
 
It wasn't the Founders who gave us the Pledge, it was a nat'l socialist around 1900

He wasn't a national socialist, because national socialism didn't exist until after World War I. Furthermore, the pledge is not against the spirit of the Founding Fathers nor is it contrary to the values the republic was founded upon.

... Coercing children into pledging their allegiance to someone else's "religious belief", especially such a "fundamental one", establishes religion - it aint the state's job to "ask" for our allegiance to its god(s).

It might not be the state's job but there's nothing wrong with it. Again, should stealing be legalized, because the existence of property contradicts some peoples' religious beliefs?

And you say it aint a violation of religious conscience? Early Christians were executed for refusing to pledge their allegiance to Rome's gods... Sounds like they thought such a pledge violated their religious conscience.

Bring this up again after you've demonstrated from reason that the Roman gods existed, in the same manner that the First Mover's existence can be proven from reason.

And stealing does not fit the definition of freedom, neither does the Pledge. You guys need to drop these analogies and debate the facts, it sounds like you've just equated religious freedom with stealing and some "silly twit" equated coercing children into daily loyalty oaths to the state's god with a simple greeting like hello.

It's a simple question: should the state be concerned about every single person's private religious beliefs, especially when they can breach off into realms of absurdity?
 
I believe he (Bellamy?) described himself as a national socialist (he sure didn't invent it), and his pledge is a nationalist mantra - one nation, indivisible. Our Founders fought a war to divy up their nation - they were secessionists, rebels against the notion of "one nation, indivisible". As for what they thought, they didn't start the Pledge. Dont cite them! Okay? You guys keep citing people who didn't have a pledge as if they supported the state coercion of children into the state's religion, it aint true.

And there's plenty wrong with it, it aint constitutional - it establishes religion and it violates religious liberty. Besides, there aint nothing in the Constitution authorizing Congress to be involved with school children in the first place, it violates the 10th A too. Using fear to coerce children into pledging their loyalty to the state and its god is immoral, and the fact a "Christian" nation is doing this given the history of Christian martyrs who were coerced (and forced) to pay homage to Rome's gods stinks of hypocrisy. As for the rest of that, I asked you to debate the facts instead of introducing 'analogies' - you aint making sense.

Again, should stealing be legalized, because the existence of property contradicts some peoples' religious beliefs?

of course not, what does this have to do with the Pledge? Do you understand what "religious freedom" means? Stealing and freedom are incompatible, the former violates the letter of the latter ;)

It's a simple question: should the state be concerned about every single person's private religious beliefs, especially when they can breach off into realms of absurdity?

If the state believes in religious freedom, YES! But you seem to think freedom = the right to steal, it doesn't.
 
I believe he (Bellamy?) described himself as a national socialist (he sure didn't invent it), and his pledge is a nationalist mantra - one nation, indivisible. Our Founders fought a war to divy up their nation - they were secessionists, rebels against the notion of "one nation, indivisible".

???

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As for what they thought, they didn't start the Pledge.Dont cite them! Okay?

I'm aware. I'm saying that the pledge does not contradict the spirit of the Founding Fathers or the foundation of the republic.

You guys keep citing people who didn't have a pledge as if they supported the state coercion of children into the state's religion, it aint true.

There were no (at least notable) atheists to speak of in 18th century North America.

And there's plenty wrong with it, it aint constitutional - it establishes religion and it violates religious liberty.

It establishes the American civil religion (which is coterminous and non-contradictory with Christianity or Judaism), which already existed by the time the Constitution was ratified.

and Besides, there aint nothing in the Constitution authorizing Congress to be involved with school children in the first place, it violates the 10th A too.

Fair enough argument, though you're now supposing the Pledge is alright if mandated by the states.

Using fear to coerce children into pledging their loyalty to the state and its god is immoral,

Where is there fear involved? When I was in high school, nobody said the pledge, and there was no punishment for not doing so; contrarwise, actually saying the pledge and endorsing its mantras resulted in minor ostracizement from my peers.

and the fact a "Christian" nation is doing this given the history of Christian martyrs who were coerced (and forced) to pay homage to Rome's gods stinks of hypocrisy.

Already covered this.

of course not, what does this have to do with the Pledge? Do you understand what "religious freedom" means? Stealing and freedom are incompatible, the former violates the letter of the latter ;)

I'm merely making the point that the state violating one's religious beliefs isn't inherently a bad thing.

If the state believes in religious freedom, YES! But you seem to think freedom = the right to steal, it doesn't.

I think if one's religious conscience drives them to steal, then it's right for the state to stop them; just the same, I see no error in a pledge of allegiance that acknowledges the existence of God, just as the Founding Fathers did.
 
I don't want to get further into this, especially since I think BuckyRea and I aren't going to agree - although I do appreciate his explanation of his point of view, so thank you for that. But I just have to make one small comment:

Bring this up again after you've demonstrated from reason that the Roman gods existed, in the same manner that the First Mover's existence can be proven from reason.

I'm sorry, LS, but that is an absolutely dire response to a very good point.

First, your claim that the "First Mover's" existence can be proven from reason is hopelessly partisan. You may personally believe that its existence can be proven from reason, but most people, including most philosophers, do not. As I've already argued with you at length, either the arguments for its existence do not work, or, if they do work, the "First Mover" whose existence they establish is not necessarily a divine being at all. Aquinas himself can conclude only that there is a "First Mover" "which we call God"; but that's not a proof of God, it's a proof of something which is subsequently identified with God. It could just as well have proven the existence of the Big Bang.

Even if, in fact, the "First Mover's" existence can be proven from reason (and the "First Mover" should be identified with the Christian God, something I think the early Christians wouldn't have approved of anyway, given how much they uniformly loathed Aristotle, but that's by the by), it remains a fact that most people, even most people who have examined the issue, have not realised this fact. In which case, even if the "First Mover's" existence can be proven from reason, it is extremely difficult to do so and the demonstration of the proof is beyond most people, even most experts.

In which case, it's really irrelevant to a question of morality, which is what this is. If it was wrong to try to force the early Christians to acknowledge (say) Caesar's genius, because it contradicted their religious beliefs, then it is surely equally wrong to try to force atheists to acknowledge the "God" of the pledge, for the same reason. Even if the early Christians' beliefs were in fact true and the atheists' beliefs are in fact false, I don't see how that bears on the question. Even if the early Christians' beliefs are demonstrably true and the atheists' beliefs are demonstrably false, again, that seems irrelevant as long as these demonstrations are beyond the ability of most people, including the people we're talking about - as they obviously are (supposing that such demonstrations exist in the first place).

It's a simple question: should the state be concerned about every single person's private religious beliefs, especially when they can breach off into realms of absurdity?

Exactly. The state shouldn't be concerning itself with people's religious beliefs, and that's why it shouldn't be presenting people with statements of belief in God and asking them publicly to subscribe to them. You can argue all you like about whether the "God" in question was a Christian God or a deist God or whatever; it's still some kind of metaphysical statement that does not fall within the aegis of the state.
 

While you're right that the Founders were committed to holding the 13 states together, not just to splitting apart from Britain... and while Berzerker is wrong about the Reverend Bellamy being a national socialist (he was a socialist and he was a nationalist, but he wasn't a nazi for Criminey's sake!)... this Franklin cartoon wasn't in any way related to the American Revolution. The cut-up snake toon was, at best, a spiritual antecedent to the revolution, but was drawn to gather support for uniting against the French as loyal British subjects in the French and Indian War.
 
Also, Georgia was left out (Delaware didn't exist yet, so I won't point out that it's not there either).
 
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