The Pygmy of Elba

MyBabylonIsBig · Feb 21, 2016

Seraiel said:
When you build a Settler, the gets used aswell.

Oh. Now I think I understand, thanks.

61 – 84 Turns

Spoiler :

Seraiel · Feb 21, 2016

1. Trade Writing against Agri, you can farm the 2 FPs then, that's very important because you need more :food:

. It's odd that he isn't willing to trade any of the other techs. Imo. You should research Sailing next so that the coastal cities get automatic Traderoutes towards Napoleons cities, Currency is too early yet with so few trades, try to establish TRs, they're the best source of economy.

2. Regarding an AI going to war:

It only happens very very very seldomly that an AI "daggers" someone, so that it delares war without a red fist being shown before. Wars are likely when the diplomatic relations are bad (try to get everyone to pleased and you're completely safe from all peaceful AIs, they cannot declare war then anymore, and the AGG ones are unlikely to DoW if you're pleased, but it does happen) and when there is border pressure. If you share 8 tiles of border with the other CIV (only land tiles count, diagonal tiles count aswell) then you are a so called "land-target" , then you need to be careful and can expect a war if you cannot get that civ to pleased. Then however a red fist will be shown at the scoreboard warning you that the AI is preparing a war. There's a period after which the fist gets shown in which wars cannot happen by 100%, not really sure what it is exactly but I think something between 7 and 11 turns, so pay attention to that red fist icon

.

3. Regarding the Barb-Archer: On the lower levels you have one or even several free wins against Barbs, that's why your Warrior survived. You can move without fearing in the beginning if you play Monarch. Next time try to fogbust such an area earlier so that that Barb couldn't even have spawned

.

Good work on the rest btw. . Keep improving the :food:

and build Grassland riverside Mines, farm the FPs and improve the Horses. There I remember something, you need to work on your Worker management. The Horses should have been improved directly after settling the city, so you need to send a Worker towards a city so that it reaches it with the Settler.
You already noticed that you need more Workers now. With getting more and more Worker techs you can prepare for needing something between 3-4 Workers, build them, they have priority, improved land is much stronger than non-improved one in the case of Mines. It may be ok to work 1-2 Forests in the very beginning but improving the tiles really has a great importance, from mid-game onwards you shouldn't work any unimproved tiles anymore unless you really know what you're doing (like i. e. working a Grassland Forest when it is 2 :hammers:

because it is the 4th :hammers:

and gets a bonus via OR or a Forge) .

I'd say do all of that and only play until Sailing for the moment, hoping that Napoleon then will trade TW + Pottery + BW.

MyBabylonIsBig · Feb 21, 2016

Seraiel said:
to work on your Worker management

Should I always prioritize resource tiles first? In this case my Worker was 4 turns away from a Settler, just finishing Deer camp, if I recall correctly. I sent the Worker to build a grassland mine for Barbarian Bear afterwards, figuring I need research booster more than I need Horses. Not sure if I stand by that decision, but it made sense at the moment. I have no roads, and there are lots hills and forests between Barbarian Bear and Nothing.

Turns 85-90

Spoiler :

Seraiel · Feb 22, 2016

1. You didn't understand what I wrote about Settlers also counts for Workers. When building both of those units a city doesn't grow, because they consume the :food:

aswell. Therefore you greatly lost in Metal Pig when switching the city away from the :food:

as those would have been the strongest tiles. You would have noticed that when you would have looked at the turn-numbers shown for the unit-build. Go through the options and turn on advanced detailed city information like I told you so that this doesn't happen again. Maybe replay that phase, not working the :food:

in that situation really is a very big hit.

2. If you want to whip, then you need Granaries first. The whip without them is efficient, but the whip is only really good when you have Granaries. Research TW -> Pottery -> BW has the advantage that your Workers could earlier build Roads and you'll need them in war. Researching BW -> TW -> Pottery has the advantage that your Workers could pre-chop. Generally I reverse my advice that Alpha beeline is always better, in weird scenarios like on this map with Napoleon not trading even the basic techs it's obviously not. Not getting Masonry before the GLH I know very well but not getting TW and Pottery or even BW is really very uncommon. I'd play out a test-scenario in which I'd research Currency because I refuse to research techs that one or two AIs have already. The problem may lie within your continent, Napoleon only trades techs when 60% or more know them, as you and him are 50% each he might not trade at all except in exceptions like Monarchy or Scientific Method, which are techs that the AIs always trades (unless they're giving you WFYABTA) .

3. Napoleon has Metal in the BFC of capital. This makes HAs a weak unit imo. , because HAs against Spears sucks, therefore I'd research Maths -> Construction soon and go for a full scale construction war. Research order probably TW -> Pottery -> BW (or BW -> TW -> Pottery) and then Maths + Construction before Currency, because Currency won't pay back 'til Construction. Going Maths so early affects your chops so don't chop too much too early then but wait 'til Maths. Chopping Granaries will be worth it though.

MyBabylonIsBig · Feb 22, 2016

Seraiel said:
Maybe replay that phase, not working the in that situation really is a very big hit.

Metal Pig was one turn away from size 4, and that would make citizens unhappy (“Hey, Patroclus, did you hear? There is fourth guy in our city now.” - “Well NOW it’s way to mainstream to live in&#8221. I know I should’ve allowed growth since I’m going to whip it later, but I used to play Civ3 back in the days and sometimes my subconsciousness gets the better of me. You really didn’t want a city to go unhappy in Civ3.
Also, I indeed checked and re-checked now, to be sure, and 3 Hammers 1 Food were making a Worker faster than 6 Food from the Pigs. Maybe the pigs weren’t metal enough, I don’t know.

Spoiler :

Seraiel said:
not working the Food in that situation really is a very big hit.

While it was a wrong decision, no arguing, I don’t think I lost that much. I’d have 4 pop city with 2 scientists, 1 useless guy and 1 poor peasant that feeds them. When I get whipping, (and by that time I’ll have my first Great Scientist, he’s just 3 turns away) I’ll just switch 1 of the scientists to Fish for a few turns and we should be more or less okay. Not ideal, but okay. At least I think so.
Also, do angry faces affect anything? Like revolution probability, or garrisoned unit heal rate, something like that?

Seraiel said:
Napoleon has Metal

Yes, he does. Foreknowledge incoming:

Spoiler :

Now I could’ve done it much better and faster, since game mechanics reveals its secrets to me and ~~I’ve gone mad with power.~~

Seraiel said:
Going Maths

I can get Maths in a 3 turns with my Great Scientist. At least according to the list kind Lexicus gave me http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/greatpeople_tech.php
So,

The Wheel -> Pottery -> Bronze Working

is the new plan, because I can get those chops for Granaries quick and effective. I’ll even have time to place my Worker and pre-chop.

Seraiel said:
I'd research Currency

Tested. He’s still too Napoleon to trade. I’m going to need to either kick his ass and take the tech, or I’m going to need Optics. I’d prefer to kick his ass first, since he’s making me nervous.

As usual, I’ll play some turns later on. I think 25 would be a good number for now. And also, I want to thank you once more for helping me out. Seriously, man. Thanks.

Lexicus · Feb 22, 2016

Sorry I kind of ghosted out of this, when I realized the save needed BUFFY to play I had to put a rain check on it since I don't have BUFFY, BUG, or any other mod at the moment.

Does anyone know if there are issues with BUFFY on windows 8??

Seraiel · Feb 22, 2016

BUFFY .003 works flawlessly. You might need to apply the fixes for Vista / Win 7 which are listed on the HoF mainpage to not any error when starting up the game. Your game needs to be completely unmodified, so you cannot use BUFFY for the same installation you use BUG + BULL for, because those alter some files. For BUFFY, all files need to be the original ones.

Seraiel · Feb 22, 2016

@ MBIB:

Yes, the Worker got faster, but your city is starving, you lose :food:

, that's horrible! You should have set 1 Scientist to work the Fishes, always work the :food:

! The city should be happy 'til size 4 with a Garrison, work both foods + 2 Scientists, and when the city grows into :mad:

procuce Settlers / Workers, as :mad:

citizens don't eat :food:

when producing those units so it doesn't matter that the city got :mad:

, or (later) whip away that population with large whips. Don't stop the growth of a city, population are :hammers:

later and having :mad:

isn't that bad as you see.

Imo. bulbing Maths is a good move. It's only little value for a GS, but you're PHI afaik so you can create a 2nd GS soon. There aren't any possibilities for the GS anyhow, because you'll want to get Napoleons capital and move your Palace there, because that city has :food:

and a good :commerce:

value with having Gold, it's very good as a Buro capital in contrast to the crappy starting location that you got handed.

Regarding war, you decide. I'd take the Catapults as those are a safe bet. I generally don't like HAs as untis, too weak, too expensive, die all the time. With Construction you can take all of his cities with much less resources and oyu'll probably lose only 1-2 Catapults if at all. Imo. build 6 Axes + 1 Spear and 4-5 Catapults and own that guy completely. You do not even need IW for that because Axes are good fighters. You can do without a Spear if he doesn't has Horses (didn't look) .

MyBabylonIsBig · Feb 23, 2016

Sorry for the delay. That pesky IRL business is always so needy, it’s like it doesn’t understand I’ve got important things to, like leading the Glorious Greek people and creating fictional rock bands. I contrived a plan while I was away from PC, however. It might not be a very good plan, but I think I still should get an “at least you tried” medal.

Turns 90-115

Spoiler :

Lexicus said:
Sorry I kind of ghosted out of this

The Glorious Greek people know that in your thoughts you were with them. And that’s what counts!

Seraiel said:
You can do without a Spear if he doesn't has Horses

Foreknowledge incoming:

Spoiler :

elitetroops · Feb 23, 2016

Seraiel said:
Regarding war, you decide. I'd take the Catapults as those are a safe bet. I generally don't like HAs as untis, too weak, too expensive, die all the time. With Construction you can take all of his cities with much less resources and oyu'll probably lose only 1-2 Catapults if at all. Imo. build 6 Axes + 1 Spear and 4-5 Catapults and own that guy completely. You do not even need IW for that because Axes are good fighters. You can do without a Spear if he doesn't has Horses (didn't look) .

But you also play deity... On the lower levels, HAs work like a charm. I'm not saying it's the best plan for this game, because I haven't been following and don't know the map, but there's no need to fear that you would face a massive stack of spears when you attack a monarch AI early.

Seraiel · Feb 23, 2016

You should build the roads zig-zag, so NW, NE, NW, NE and so on. The road from Metal Pig towards the capital should have been Pigs, Grassland Hill because you later want to build a Windmill there instead of the mine, then the Plains you roaded because you save 1 Workerturns by not moving on the hill and then SE so you already get a road in direction of Barbarian Bear.

I'm too tired today to make any plans, someone else will need to give advice.

@ elitetroops: Right, but I'm trying to teach him good play, and Horse Archers imo. are only when the player is overpowered in regard towards the difficulty. I've exactly played 1 successful HA-rush in 5y of CIV which was in BOTM 99 which was on Emperor. Idk. why anybody thinks Horse Archers are so great, in my hands they do nothing but die against whatever they attack.

Lexicus · Feb 23, 2016

Seraiel said:
@ elitetroops: Right, but I'm trying to teach him good play, and Horse Archers imo. are only when the player is overpowered in regard towards the difficulty. I've exactly played 1 successful HA-rush in 5y of CIV which was in BOTM 99 which was on Emperor. Idk. why anybody thinks Horse Archers are so great, in my hands they do nothing but die against whatever they attack.

This pretty well matches my experience. Most recently tried to pull off a Keshik run, but my target had Iron in his capital, which was all the way on the opposite side of the continent from me. I sent guys to pillage it but they were killed by spears, and even though I took 5 or 6 cities I had almost nothing to show for it because within 5 turns he had enough spears to destroy every single HA I had - this was on Monarch btw. I assumed it was because I'm just not very good, but reading this from the mighty Seraiel makes me feel a bit better

The one time I remember successfully HA rushing, it was because I popped HBR from a goody hut in ca. 2500 BC.

elitetroops · Feb 23, 2016

Seraiel said:
@ elitetroops: Right, but I'm trying to teach him good play, and Horse Archers imo. are only when the player is overpowered in regard towards the difficulty. I've exactly played 1 successful HA-rush in 5y of CIV which was in BOTM 99 which was on Emperor. Idk. why anybody thinks Horse Archers are so great, in my hands they do nothing but die against whatever they attack.

Good play is about adapting to the situation. Playing a monarch map like it was deity is not adapting...

HAs are extremely powerful and fast. Look at SGOTMs and you will find that it is often the weapon of choice for the top teams. SGOTM20 (immortal difficulty) comes to mind, where TSR won the whole map with HAs, while we in PR teched to rifles. And I also seem to remember a certain G-Major where WastinTime beat your game by 2000 years, using HAs.

Warring with HAs might not be as straight forward as with elepults. You can't just run head on and hit them. Some more strategy is required to get rid of metals, avoid fighting spears and so on. But don't say it can't be done. I've even beaten immortal quick speed with HAs (okay, it was Keshiks, but whatever). Catapults for your first war on monarch is a waste imo. The strength of catapults come from collateral damage. If you do an early construction rush, most cities will have 1-2 defenders and the benefits of collateral are mostly lost.

Seraiel · Feb 24, 2016

@ elitetroops:

In the game in which WastinTime beat my game by 2000y he rushed a Deity-civ with Warriors (4 Warriors / Archer) . I tried that, I didn't succeed in 3 tries with those ratios. I also analyzed parts of the early combat log because I couldn't believe that someone would take a map by Horse Archers on which I teched to Cuirrs, and I found that WastinTime had so much luck with the RNG like I didn't ever had in my whole time of playing CIV. I analyzed the combat log of the luckiest game I ever played against it afterwards, in it I got about the chances that the RNG showed me (this is lucky for me :rolleyes:

) , in GM-134, WT won more than 100% fights more than the RNG would have usually let him. I don't say that this is unfair or whatever, it just speaks for the weakness of Horse Archers, if WT wouldn't have had that exceptional luck, the HAs would simply have sucked and this is also my experience, HAs are fast but HAs need luck to achieve anything at all.

And regarding the SGOTM's: I played SGOTM 18 with Kakumeika and we were the only team going for a HA-rush. We definitely were the best warring team of all other teams, we stole over 15 Workers with the AHs, successfully choked Genghis Khan from ever getting Metal and conquered almost all of his cities with needing over 9 cease-fires though!!! Then we stood before a hills + Walls city and it was Kaitzilla's time to play. We had 10 HAs against 3 Archers and he asked for someone to put up a test-game. I made one and played that scenario, I lost 3 times with 10 HAs against 3 Archers :dubious:

. In the real game, Kaizilla spent a GG on one of the HAs to promote him to Combat 3 or 4 and with that we just barely were able to conquer Genghis last city.

I know very well what you mean elitetroops, but I also know very well what I talk off. Pulling of a HA rush can be a huge disadvantage, because they're so fast, but even without metal but with Hills-cities, HAs are 80% luck and 20% skill if at all. I have the same experience with Swords, they just suck badly too, wars before construction are so costly, that building Settlers would be better and I say that with Sword-rushing in GM-137 with 40 swords conquering 1-2 civs but losing 95% of them on 2 or 3 cities against Axes.
In contrast to that though, in SGOTM-18 Plastic Ducks went for a Construction war, and while they weren't as good at war as Kakumeika was, they easily conquered the whole map without any problems with one sweep.

I really don't wanna teach the absolute highest possible difficulty of warring to someone who is new and not when it is so greatly dependant on luck.

Rusten · Feb 24, 2016

HAs are not reliant on luck. Then you're doing it wrong somehow.

I do agree however that HA rushing is not a good strat for beginners. Too tactical and specific. It's not a unit you make to annihilate an ememy.

elitetroops · Feb 24, 2016

@Seraiel, your claims that HAs are "20% skill if at all", and "the absolute highest possible difficulty of warring" are not quite compatible. I can agree that successful warfare with HAs on higher levels is more difficult, but that means it is even more about skill. I've played a ton of HA rushes up to immortal difficulty and have never felt that it would require any extraordinary amount of luck. Sure, warfare is always to some degree dependent on luck, and the earlier you go to war, the greater the variance. But still, if you do it right, you can overcome the luck factor.

However, I do think you do not have quite a realistic picture of what war on the lower difficulties is about. On anything up to monarch, HAs do not require any extreme warfare skill. The AI just doesn't build enough units. I had a look at an old challenge series high score game on Prince. In that one I did a very late HA war, attacked 275BC. By 1 AD, I had taken 9 AI cities and lost only 7 HAs. The picture you are painting, that HA wars result in too many losses, is simply not accurate when dealing with lower level AI.

Seraiel · Feb 24, 2016

Rusten said:
HAs are not reliant on luck. Then you're doing it wrong somehow.

I do agree however that HA rushing is not a good strat for beginners. Too tactical and specific. It's not a unit you make to annihilate an ememy.

I'm doing nothing wrong Rusten and the first rush on Deity that is not luck-depenant is Elepult. The best HA-rush I ever played I had 12 HAs at 1800 BC, my Target had no metal, then I attacked his first city and he had 5 freaking Archers in it and I lost 12 HAs without killing even 1 Archer, I had 1 withdraw. Horse Archers are luck dependant Rusten, because it's not garantueed to get 50% wins out of 8 fights with 50% chances. With Elepult however luck is not a factor anymore, because it's only a factor of whether one needs to sacrifice one catapult more or not because the chances are 90%+.
Take this information as additional: What I mean with luck-dependant already starts with which map you get. If you start next to Peter, whom you needed to choose in your round because you're playing a Space Race and he's the fastest low peaceweight tech-trader, and Peter's capital is on a Hill and he has Metal, then the HA-rush is luck dependant. Peter could whip Walls, if he decides to choose ai_city_defense for 4 Archers, have fun. If he decided to whip 2 Spears, have more fun. If his capital however is not on a hill and he only decided to choose ai_city_defense for 2 units but 4 are in the capital, great, then you can lure out 2 and easily get the city. This is also what I mean with luck Rusten, there are things the player cannot influence and those depend on luck (or bad luck) .
When I write that Elepult is not luck-dependant, then because Elepults beat Longbows, and they don't get attacked by any unit of the AI if 1-2 Shockers are between them. The AI sits in its cities, one can bombard the defenses down, sacrifices 2-3 Catapults, 90% chances, 2-3 Catapults lost, all Elephants alive or one sacrifices 1 Catapult less, then maybe 1 Elephant dies. If an AI only has normal Archers + Spears, then it's laughable with Elepult. The main difference though is, that HAs come at a time when an AI already can have great defenses (hills, walls, Archers with CG or even Drill I + CG 2, random chance that simply 4-6 units defend the city and cannot be lured out etc. ) and HAs have nothing to overcome those defenses because they're too weak. HAs are fast, they can roam through an empire and take all the easy cities but given the right map, HAs won't be able to take the whole neighbour like Elepults can.

I hope you understand what I mean now, plz don't assume that I do something wrong only because I don't like HAs but when you don't know how much experience I actually got in wars. HAs are great to gain a heavy advantage, but they're hit and miss. Elepult is a 100% safe bet given one was able to settle 3 decent cities.

MyBabylonIsBig · Feb 24, 2016

Horse Archers RULE

Stack 4 Life

Hi, guys. There are three reasons Im not using HA in this game:

1. Its my third attempt to win this map. Two of my previous wars with Napoleon I won with Horse Archers, and I was indeed planning on using HA again. However, one has to move out of his comfort zone someday, and why not today?
2. Horse Archers, as Tristan_C kindly pointed out, would be a tech diversion, which is, I think, quite undesirable in my particular situation:

MyBabylonIsBig said:
there is a continent full of other people that are, apparently, rabbits AND techtrade junkies at the same time.

So, yes. There is a distant continent with other countries, and Im on an island with no tech trade possibilities. Because they are all jealous of Glorious Greek people.
3. I think its already too late for HA. It will take me about 15 turns to get Archery and Horse Archery, and then Ill have to build my force. 2 units per garrison discount will end by the time I have my horsemen at least thats my assessment. I could be wrong, of course.

Anyway. If you want to know more about my situation, I did write up my turns. If you put aside Barbarian Bear nonsense and skip the screenshots, the whole thing will take about 5-10 minutes to read. And then we can all sit in our forum dimension X and plan together on how to deal with those turtles for good. Just saying.

Seraiel said:
You should build the roads zig-zag, so NW, NE, NW, NE and so on

Oh. All right. Hopefully I understand why? in the process. 20 more turns incoming later on, hopefully.

Also, as a bonus, here's the first draft of this post:

Spoiler :

Rusten · Feb 24, 2016

@Seraiel
You're speaking from a HoF deity perspective which is not realistic for 99% of the playerbase. A regular forum user doesn't choose opponents or decide to HA rush before the game starts. You can influence your luck by not choosing a certain strategy because you're not min-maxing the game.

For normal games you add some extra HAs to counter "unlucky rolls". To claim that HAs is 80% luck is absolutely absurd!

Seraiel · Feb 24, 2016

elitetroops said:
@Seraiel, your claims that HAs are "20% skill if at all", and "the absolute highest possible difficulty of warring" are not quite compatible. I can agree that successful warfare with HAs on higher levels is more difficult, but that means it is even more about skill. I've played a ton of HA rushes up to immortal difficulty and have never felt that it would require any extraordinary amount of luck. Sure, warfare is always to some degree dependent on luck, and the earlier you go to war, the greater the variance. But still, if you do it right, you can overcome the luck factor.

However, I do think you do not have quite a realistic picture of what war on the lower difficulties is about. On anything up to monarch, HAs do not require any extreme warfare skill. The AI just doesn't build enough units. I had a look at an old challenge series high score game on Prince. In that one I did a very late HA war, attacked 275BC. By 1 AD, I had taken 9 AI cities and lost only 7 HAs. The picture you are painting, that HA wars result in too many losses, is simply not accurate when dealing with lower level AI.

Read post above and also my writeup in the BOTM-100 thread, I think I lost 6 HAs against 2 Archers and 1 Axe in a Walls + Hills city. HA have their use, but they aren't reliable, good units. BOTM-100 was on Prince and the defenses the AI I attacked had were laughable, still I needed to whip over 20 HAs to conquer it because he simply built 1 Wall after the other, had enough Hills cities and I even had bad luck with not getting the chances that were shown. HA-rushing him was still good because I needed his cities fast and I had so much production that the losses were ok. Still, if the game had been on Emperor and if I had been given a worse map with less good land to settle, then having 20 losses would have screwed me completely, while a Construction war can't get screwed (except by Longbows but Elepult overcomes even those) .

When I write that HAs are 20% skill and 80% luck but the unit requiring the highest skill, that means that I'm using several tricks with HAs that I learned over the years, forking, leaving a city undefended, luring with wounded troops, gifting a city on flat terrain so the AI moves out its troops from the Hills-city, attacking too hard units with Flanking and not Combat, cease-fires, etc. and all of those tricks for me are 20% skill, because after that the mighty RNG comes and decides, "oh, 20%, I'll let you survive" or "oh, 70%, I'll let you lose" . In contrast to that, Construction warfare is 0% skill and maybe 2% luck and 98% all other factors like i. e. "does Mansa tech Construction early so I can trade it" or "can I attack before Longbows" etc. but those factors imo. do not count, because that's not the RNG directly (though ofc. it is) . The thing is, that in a warfare with only few units that have widely varying odds the wars simply are very luck dependant, even on Prince, if you play a Spacerace, Oracle CS and research Education and that before HBR because you want to get the heaviest headstart possible and if you only attack with as few HAs as possible because every additional HA is tech-rate. Construction-warfare is simply completely different, because it's safe, it's only "do I need 1 Catapult more, 60% chances 4 defenders 7 attackers yes, 80% chances 7 attackers 4 defenders no" .

The Pygmy of Elba

Chieftain

If you want anything from I please ask in German

Chieftain

If you want anything from I please ask in German

Chieftain

Deity

If you want anything from I please ask in German

If you want anything from I please ask in German

Chieftain

Deity

If you want anything from I please ask in German

Deity

Deity

If you want anything from I please ask in German

Deity

Deity

If you want anything from I please ask in German

Chieftain

Deity

If you want anything from I please ask in German

Similar threads