The questions-not-worth-their-own-thread question thread XI

[Cutlass]

Ferrari are apparently making some of their new cars semi-hybrid, which got me thinking...

Is there any reason why the electric motors of a regenerative breaking car should be the same as the petrol driven wheels? In the case of a rear wheel drive sports car could the front wheels not be the electrically driven acceleration boosters? Wouldnt this give the car more grip while accelerating?

On a related note, and not specifically related to sports cars at all, would it not be possible for a car with one gas powered set of wheels and one electric set to have some kind of ice/ snow mode. Use the engine to generate power to provide a limited drive to the other set of wheels. It would require the alternator to be capable of being variable, but that would be trivially easy. Even if such a mode only worked at low speeds, how fast do people really drive under such conditions?

With on wheel electric motors, it seems as if all 4 wheels, or just front or backs is the preferred layout. For high performance cars, 4 wheel. For more economical cars, 2 wheels. I don't see a combination of electrical and mechanical drives being worthwhile, because it would add too much weight and complexity.

As for acceleration, high end cars, those with the greatest acceleration, are rear wheel drive or all wheel drive most of the time. Front drive is not as good for acceleration. And it's debatable if it's better for bad weather traction.

 

[GinandTonic]

With on wheel electric motors, it seems as if all 4 wheels, or just front or backs is the preferred layout. For high performance cars, 4 wheel. For more economical cars, 2 wheels. I don't see a combination of electrical and mechanical drives being worthwhile, because it would add too much weight and complexity.

As for acceleration, high end cars, those with the greatest acceleration, are rear wheel drive or all wheel drive most of the time. Front drive is not as good for acceleration. And it's debatable if it's better for bad weather traction.

Well my point was that ATM the electric boost seems to go to the same wheels as the gas powered wheels. Is this necessary, and if not what benefits can be gained.

 

[Cutlass]

Well my point was that ATM the electric boost seems to go to the same wheels as the gas powered wheels. Is this necessary, and if not what benefits can be gained.

I'm confused about what you think the drive arrangement is. There are a number of different ones in use or planned. One of the most common is a central electric motor turning the drive while a gas motor supplies the electricity. That arrangement can be front, rear, or all. If you want a top end sports car, you don't do front drive only. So you'd have to show me the diagram of the drive for that Ferrari for me to have a clear picture of which system was being used.

 

[GinandTonic]

I'm confused about what you think the drive arrangement is. There are a number of different ones in use or planned. One of the most common is a central electric motor turning the drive while a gas motor supplies the electricity. That arrangement can be front, rear, or all. If you want a top end sports car, you don't do front drive only. So you'd have to show me the diagram of the drive for that Ferrari for me to have a clear picture of which system was being used.

lets ignore the ferrari for the mo.

As I understand it the standard hybred arrangement is to augment the gas power of the conventional drive train with an electric motor. Therefore whatever wheels are driven by the conventional engine are driven by the electric motor - its all done c. the gearbox.

The point I was flapping at was that since the KERS model (regenerative breaking) is not a true hybred power train integrating it into the power train is unnecessary. If all we will get from the KERS is a push off the line then could the undriven axle not be driven by the secondary electric motors.

Imagine a standard smallish family car, FWD. Why not put the electric motor on the rear axle, isolated from all the complex nightmare under the front. It will only have a fraction of the power of the petrol engine and only operate at low speeds. Its job is to absorb (much of) the energy of stopping at the lights and help push the car back up to 25 or so. Why does this need to be physically connected to powering the existing drivetrain? Sure It needs some kind of software connection but why do people want to connect it to the gearbox when it would seem to be not only vastly simpler but actually beneficial to slap an electric motor around the rear axle.

Instead of the regenerative breaking adding to the BHP of the power train directly it would put exactly the same push on the other wheels.

Benefits would be a slightly better weight distribution and a degree of 4WD while accelerating.

-----

My second point was that as I was considering applying the electric motor to the undriven axle it occurred to me that having all four wheels driven could also give the car the ability to be a half-arsed 4x4. Without the regenerative breaking the engine would have to provide the electricity, but with some work with the alternator a low speed ice/snow mode could be possible. Not a true 4WD but say a 10-15% power from the rear wheels assist for when traction rather than power is the issue.

 

[Cutlass]

The thing is, I think you're actually adding complexity and weight rather than decreasing it. In the models that I'm familiar with, the unpowered axle is extremely simple. You wouldn't add a drive system to the front axle, because that is one of the more complex problems on a car. And the rear "axle" of a front drive car really isn't an axle at all. So adding drive there would be much more difficult and add more weight than using the existing drive axle.


As to the benefits of AWD, I tend to think it's pretty much overrated. If people want it, they can get it extra.

 

[GinandTonic]

Well putting an electric motor on a rear axle is the simplest possible way to propel a car. I dont really see how any regenerative system could be less complex.

 

[Cutlass]

A front drive car doesn't have a rear axle. You'd have to add one.

 

[GinandTonic]

The wheels are not attached to each other?

 

[Takhisis]

Well spotted.

 

[Cutlass]

The wheels are not attached to each other?

No, they aren't. Well maybe they are on some of them, I haven't been underneath every model of car, and their are 100s of models. But the ones I am familiar with have an independent rear suspension. A common configuration is independent suspensions where there is an arm on each side attached to the body, not to each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_suspension The picture is actually the rear suspension of an AWD car. But without the axle, that's what many FWD rear suspensions look like.

 

[Tani Coyote]

..what the hell happened to taillesskangaru's avatar? Edit: Seems there was quite a bit of chaos in Bangkok I didn't know about, and given that tailless is Thai in origin, I guess that's the explanation.

Alternatively, would it be correct to state that creative federalism refers to policies of bypassing the state governments in policy and began more or less with Johnson, whereas New Federalism refers to policies undertaken by Reagan and Nixon to try and scale back federal standards, letting the states have more power over how federal money was spent?

 

[Tee Kay]

..what the hell happened to taillesskangaru's avatar? Edit: Seems there was quite a bit of chaos in Bangkok I didn't know about, and given that tailless is Thai in origin, I guess that's the explanation.

There were some anti-government demonstrations. That became street battles, and now extremists are rioting and burning down the city. The building on fire is Thailand's largest shopping center.

Both sides claimed to be acting in the name of democracy. Apparently for the government democracy means military rule and for the protesters it means anarchy.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

how do they test a brain for a "con cush in" (my mom says the mentil helth docters are thinking I got it ... i lookd up the medicitins they priscribid and their suppsed to be indistral-strenth panekillers i forgut the word for those kinds of panekillirs)

 

[Genocidicbunny]

how do they test a brain for a "con cush in" (my mom says the mentil helth docters are thinking I got it ... i lookd up the medicitins they priscribid and their suppsed to be indistral-strenth panekillers i forgut the word for those kinds of panekillirs)

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[Heretic_Cata]

how do they test a brain for a "con cush in" (my mom says the mentil helth docters are thinking I got it ... i lookd up the medicitins they priscribid and their suppsed to be indistral-strenth panekillers i forgut the word for those kinds of panekillirs)

Go to your local pharmacy or a police station and ask for "her o in" . You need that instead.
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[Yared]

Boooooy, Ainwood aint gonna be amused.


Anyway, Aimee, I'm too lazy to look how they do it for you, so I'll give you the correct spelling so that you can google it yourself:

"concussion"

 

[Shekwan]

If they don't have that then lysergic acid dyethlamine is a good alternative.

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[Mad Man]

My skin is unbelievably soft right now why is that?

 

[Huayna Capac357]

how do they test a brain for a "con cush in" (my mom says the mentil helth docters are thinking I got it ... i lookd up the medicitins they priscribid and their suppsed to be indistral-strenth panekillers i forgut the word for those kinds of panekillirs)

Most likely they will give you an MRI or CAT (or maybe CT?) scan. Basically you lie on a board and then they make the board move backwards into a sort of giant tube. The tube scans your brain for a concussion, and you move slowly out. It only takes a few minutes and isn't dangerous or painful (or anything; you can pretty much nearly fall asleep while they are scanning).

Here's a picture:

Once they get the results, they can tell you if you have a concussion or not. Basically, a concussion is an injury to the brain. If you hit your head or something like that, then you could have a concussion. Did you hit your head? Is that why you are having painkillers prescribed for you?

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

i hit my hed on the wall at scool (i was using the green screen in film class i thogt there was a cushin behind it). and i saw some flashy things and felt dizzy and a few days latir I got a relly bad hedache.