The real future of strategic games

[tatva]

The esential point has not been sought yet by any developer, nor in the original game nor in the mods. The esential point is that you still are bound to luck: the ground where you play is so esential: if you dont get enough resources you are doomed, no matter what you do. In fact, when I start a game, I always go to world builder and check if I get enought resources and if they are well placed (having good resources isolated in middle of bad terrain is very common). Only then I start, else I just regenerate the map. I dont like to waste my time in games that are doomed from begining.

The progress of these type of games has been in giving the player more control over what happens. But they still have not give the power to control the esence: the resources placement. Im thinking of something like being able to grow resources by yourself, once you discover them and with some limit -of course- . If developers make that posible, then the whole game would be totally in another level...

There are some resources that you cant grow, like stones, gold ,etc. but many others, if you must be realistic, you can sow. And being able to terraform is also a nice tool, but that is futuristic, like in alpha centauri.

I would like also the ability to sow woods, not only for some religion, but for anybody, because you can make that in reality and because woods are so esential also.

What you all think about this?

 

[Valkrionn]

The esential point has not been sought yet by any developer, nor in the original game nor in the mods. The esential point is that you still are bound to luck: the ground where you play is so esential: if you dont get enough resources you are doomed, no matter what you do. In fact, when I start a game, I always go to world builder and check if I get enought resources and if they are well placed (having good resources isolated in middle of bad terrain is very common). Only then I start, else I just regenerate the map. I dont like to waste my time in games that are doomed from begining.

The progress of these type of games has been in giving the player more control over what happens. But they still have not give the power to control the esence: the resources placement. Im thinking of something like being able to grow resources by yourself, once you discover them and with some limit -of course- . If developers make that posible, then the whole game would be totally in another level...

There are some resources that you cant grow, like stones, gold ,etc. but many others, if you must be realistic, you can sow. And being able to terraform is also a nice tool, but that is futuristic, like in alpha centauri.

I would like also the ability to sow woods, not only for some religion, but for anybody, because you can make that in reality and because woods are so esential also.

What you all think about this?

Play RifE. As that's something that HAS been addressed in a mod.

We added a SpreadChance to Organic resources (on the improvements); Farm has a chance to discover Corn, but only after you have a copy of Corn. Been in for a while.

To go with this, all improvements are buildable, allowing you some planning. It's still random, but the chance is high enough that you can plan for it.

Similarly, inorganic resources can be discovered by their improvements. That one works normally, however, as you don't need a copy of the resource already.

 

[Till]

I don't think resources are the problem at all.

Recon units are so powerful that you can get by without copper and iron (or more often: capture yourself some!). If you are certain to get them, then this would ruin their entire point and you might as well take them out of the game entirely.
The real issue here is that the AI is horrible at using recon units and hamstrung by lack of iron/copper.

Happiness and health resources are important, but as it doesn't matter which ones you get, this is almost never an issue. And when it is, it's because you have been cornered and are losing the game.

The only real issue are commerce boosters in the very early game. Without any capital tiles with gold, wine, etc, it's very hard to aquire the techs you need to build an economy. The option to build everything from the start solves this problem, but comes with downsides of its own.

Anyway, Civ has always had a strong element of luck. It's part of what makes it fun, and can be kept without losing strategic depth. The real problem is the way the computer opponents' moves are determined.

 

[Pazyryk]

You could just modify your palace to give all strategic resources. It's an easy XML change.

 

[Sephi]

Play RifE. As that's something that HAS been addressed in a mod.

If you play with Noble Houses and gain the Support of House Ghallanda you can grow many resources on their plantations or gain them via trade Missions. House Kundarak has some abilites too. And they work much more reliable than the spreadchance in Rife

There should be some limitations though cause else it makes trading resources useless.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'll echo Till about how vital early commerce is to a succesful game.

 

[Valkrionn]

If you play with Noble Houses and gain the Support of House Ghallanda you can grow many resources on their plantations or gain them via trade Missions. House Kundarak has some abilites too. And they work much more reliable than the spreadchance in Rife

There should be some limitations though cause else it makes trading resources useless.

Didn't actually know that (don't play WM, barely have time to play RifE), but that's far more limited in scope I think.

Not sure how it's more reliable (unless it's done via python, which I wanted to avoid), explain how it works?

As it is though, what you have requires you to support one specific guild, which comes midgame (I believe). My version is generic, available the entire game. Like I said, requires an existing copy of the resource first so trade is still vital.

 

[wapamingo]

So what if you start in an non-ideal location. Look at real life and consider Japan, it has no natural resources and imports all, yet it has one of the most powerful economies in the world. (but we have seen what happens when they an no longer import - war)

In MP games, you start where you start. In WM-MP games, it really does not matter. Just push for catapults+axemen+archers (this is really all you need to carve out an empire) and be aggressive and suck-up to the powerful AI. Play the good vs. evil and pick sides.

Yes, there is luck. Sure is great when you start with 3 gold next to capital. But I often start with 1 sheep and still make it in games on increasing difficulty (usually means sucking up to the human opponent as well) - in other words, it's not a dissaster, and I don't dominate but there are many ways to win this game.

I think the way mods have it, a random chance to "discover" or to "grow" something is just fine.

And I do second that an early commerce is vital, so a rush for education.

 

[tatva]

Let see. I dont mean you have all from begining, you should still depend on getting the resources for the first time and to research some tech to be able to "copy" it.
And there is the other side, because the AI would have the same power as you (is normal to foget there are many sides, not only you).

I think I will try Rife. It sounds near to what I have in mind.

What I mean is an entire new design, like for example, to be able to sow some cereals you need apropiate terrain, then you need to construct irrigation chanels or something, etc. It still needs work from your side, not that you get all from begining.
Or you can go commerce or you can just go war and steal. There are always those options.

What disapoints me is that a certain percentage of the games you loose from begining because bad placement of the resources, and that is something you cant control. There are many things you cant control and are matter of luck, but resources are vital in all senses as they determine who wins and who looses.

May be with a cap to the number of resources of the same type that you can have, the point is not getting all, but getting them in the proper -geographical- position.
Specially the food resources, because without them you simply cant grow.

The worst case I saw in a civ-IV game: someone started in a peninsula with just space for 1 city no matter how you build it, and the stretch that connected him with continent had a mountain (impassable terrain)....

 

[aimlessgun]

I think the randomness adds challenge that keeps the game interesting though.

You mention vital resources in terrible spots: that presents an engaging cost/benefit puzzle to the player. Similarly vital resources controlled by other civs you might be able to wrest away.

You can get really bad luck yes, and I will admit to regenerating starts that look horrible, but I think the game generally benefits from the randomness of map generation. If this game were intended for srs competetive MP like Starcraft, then yes randomness would be absolutely horrible.

I'll echo Till about how vital early commerce is to a succesful game.

You can make up for it with cottages if your start doesn't otherwise suck.

EDIT: Nm I'm thinking of my games where I always start on Classical (since I play on marathon). Yeah researching worker techs without a commerce resource was probably the main reason I started to begin on classical now that I think about it...

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

changing palaces to give 12 commerce would improve that, would be nice. early game gets boring pretty fast with nothing but warriors.

 

[hbar]

While I agree that things like corn and sheep should be spreadable, things like wine and cotton are different. There is a reason that there are only three major wine growing regions in the world (France, California, and Chile) - have you ever tasted a Wisconsin wine? And prior to recent advances in hydroengineering, cotton was only grown in a few places that could support such a thirsty crop.

Perhaps pure food resources should get nerfed and spreadable, but that is a balance trainwreck waiting to happen.

 

[BasilAbdef]

Eh, I feel like resources are much too plentiful/easy to get as it is. Maybe there should be an option put in game for half bonuses?

 

[tatva]

thanks, hbar, I think you are seeing my point. I agree with you, not all the resources, but the esential ones are food ones. And this is simply going real.

 

[hbar]

Heh, don't get me wrong - I don't agree that it should be changed, just that it doesn't make any sense. Gameplay always trumps realism, and as it stands, food resources provide a fun bonus and a strategic choice. If I could think of a way to keep the strategy without making it overpowered, I'd be all about changing it. Until then, I say Sid got it right.

And I have tried the method in RifE and Orbis, and I think it is even less realistic - you don't build a farm and till it for a century before you 'discover' corn, and you don't build an empty pasture and wait until the cows come home. This isn't Field of Dreams, after all.

tatva's solution is too little luck, and Valk's is too much, but as in all things, it is a matter of personal taste

 

[aimlessgun]

In terms of realism, when it came to ancient times just sort of finding wheat or cows IS realistic. That's how it happened, you find wild species that are domesticatable, because you're lucky enough to be nearby. These accidents of geography in turn give you legs up on every other civ: see Mesopotamia, a region rich in easily domesticated plants an animals > one of the earliest cradles of civilization.

So if you were striving for realism, at some fairly early point you'd get a tech that allowed you to make wheat farms anywhere you wanted.

But when you have something that's a benefit, you either have to make it random or give it a substantial cost. If your only cost is the time it takes a worker to build another wheat farm, then you might as well remove them from the game.

 

[hbar]

That's my point. Allowing the spread of domesticated plants/animals would unbalance the game with the current bonuses. The existing mechanic, while unrealistic, provides the best gameplay.

 

[Tholal]

What disapoints me is that a certain percentage of the games you loose from begining because bad placement of the resources

I disagree wholeheartedly with this statement. If you don't begin the game with all of your 'required' resources right next to your capitol, then start thinking hard about where you will place your next cities, and also look into trading with the other civs as soon as you can.

Initial early economy can be bolstered by Fishing (if on the coast) or Festivals (for markets). If you don't have Gold, Wine or whatever else nearby, then you had better hit one or both of those early techs.

A big part of strategy games (for me anyway) is being able to deal with the unexpected and alter your plans based on the current situation. If all you do is hit the reset button until you get a perfect start, then you're doing the game and yourself a disservice.

 

[Lord Katana]

I disagree wholeheartedly with this statement. If you don't begin the game with all of your 'required' resources right next to your capitol, then start thinking hard about where you will place your next cities, and also look into trading with the other civs as soon as you can.

Initial early economy can be bolstered by Fishing (if on the coast) or Festivals (for markets). If you don't have Gold, Wine or whatever else nearby, then you had better hit one or both of those early techs.

A big part of strategy games (for me anyway) is being able to deal with the unexpected and alter your plans based on the current situation. If all you do is hit the reset button until you get a perfect start, then you're doing the game and yourself a disservice.

Can't agree more here! I think it's one of the best challenges, not having everything u want handy and being able to work around it. In my current game (sheaim) i don't have any copper so my pyre zombies aren't really strong. I do know that my next door neighbor has iron without himself knowing it.... Waging a full scale war (which is currently costing me my economy) to get that one iron on this side of the map is good fun!

Also for those who like a challenge for being resource starved, try svaltar (sp? i know) with flavour start on.. i NEVER had a start with a happy resource anywhere near my starting position... and yet it's good fun to play them! (little less now after FoL nerf (ok, that was OP), but still)