The Realms Beyond - Succession Game Discussions

[Garath]

Jabah: I general, yes, I know about everything you have commented on. See my first post, where I said I'd done quite a bit of analysis on the missing techs and the strange ordering of them (as far as I can determine, it's the perfect extreme of beelining. It gets as close as it can to Future Tech as quickly as it can).

Also note that I've already suggested that Cyrus or the Americas (who are the ones that start with Fishing) are the way to go. I don't want to try this without Agriculture *or* Animal Husbandry yet. There are quite enough other missing things without missing Farms as well!

I don't think trading for Copper will be plausible. For a start, you need to get trading contact, which will probably be too slow for the barbs not to run us over, and second we are unlikely to have enough other resources to trade for it, given how many we can't connect.

You're right, lack of Emancipation is going to hurt, I hadn't flagged that in specific, merely noted that we'd be short on top Civics. We'll just have to kill them all before they get Democracy then, won't we?! :biggrin:

There will be a few eras in which war will actually be reasonable.

1. Axeman, and catapults. We'll get those not too absurdly late.
2. Muskets! For once, these may actually see some use! So long as we have reasonable science, we'll get them a fair bit earlier than usual, so going on a war of conquest with them may not be out of the question!
3: Late. We get Rifles, Infantry, Tanks, Navy Seals, and Modern Armour, eventually. We do *not* get Flight, so striking quickly with those units will be recommended. Ideally before they get Infantry. That's unlikely to be possible, though, so our late wars could be a bit of a slog.

Three is enough that I'll start the game, though I'll take up to two more. I'll start the thread and play the game later today GMT. Do either of you have preference for slots, say due to time zones?

If you have any preferences on size/map script etc. speak before I start the game, otherwise it will be on something like Standard Custom Continents (probably random number, since I haven't done that yet). I'll be playing Washington, I think. Atlas makes a good point that Organised will be *very* useful, and we won't have the techs in time to get many wonders to make use of Industrial from FDR.

And yes, we'll be playing on Prince. :crazyeyes:

--Garath

 

[Jabah]

Garath.
I know you knew (most of) all the missing tech, I was more giving information for potential lurkers or gaming partners .

Regarding playing order, I am in Europe and playing usually late after work (like between 10pm-12pm western europe time), so it could be good to be before someone doing the same in any USA timezone and/or after someone in Asia/Pacific (or playing earlier in Europe). But since I sometimes (often...) have other obligations during the week, there might be some differences between good theory and reality.
Don't know where you are anyway. (Atlas in on the east coast)

Jabah

PS no preferences for map (except no archipelago, but you realized that as well already)

 

[Atlas]

@ Garath, we must have Ag., chain irrigation will be important with no camps and pastures, imagine cottages/farms on cows . Anyway I think old GW is the best choice. Custom Continents sounds good, maybe tropical for calendar resources that we can at least use at some point. Standard size is fine, any bigger and I get frustrated moving a ton of units around in the late game. Would you put a link in the thread to the game? Also like Jabah said I am on the east coast US. Anyway if you play today go ahead and put me in the second spot since I have all day tommorrow off . I fyou don't start today then it I don't really care where you put me in the rotation (it does not matter alot any way).

Atlas

edit: too late here is the link for those that want to join or lurk http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159392

 

[Spatzimaus]

It may have to be in my criteria for a valid start position (*visible* Copper, that is, not right at the start location or anything) along with a usable food bonus at the start.

Unfortunately, Copper wouldn't be revealed until you reach Bronze Working, so you wouldn't know if a game is doomed until a few dozen turns have passed. There's one possible workaround, though; find some uninvolved third party to come in, load up the save in the worldbuilder, and verify a copper is present (or possibly have them add it if it isn't). That way, no players get any inside information, but the game's still workable.

 

[Mike Lemmer]

I could be the uninvolved third party.

 

[knupp715]

This post has nothing to do with any SG's but is the RB server down? I was on it and was about to post but it wouldn't let me, saying that the server was too busy. I tried over and over but it wouldn't let me do anything. Then I went the home-page but couldn't get into the forums due to the same problem. And now when I try, I can't get to the site at all! I wanted to read some more of the Adventure 4 reports today too

 

[Sirian]

This post has nothing to do with any SG's but is the RB server down?

Yep. It's down. ... I don't know what the story is. Gris will sort it out for us, how and when she can.


- Sirian

 

[knupp715]

Yep. It's down. ... I don't know what the story is. Gris will sort it out for us, how and when she can.


- Sirian

Thanks for the info. I guess I'll have to spend my time late into the wee hours of the morning playing multiplayer games, what a pity.

 

[Griselda]

Unfortunately, it looks like everything's down- our host's domains are down as well, so I can't get through to him. It could be something as simple as a power outage on his end, or something like that.

I guess we'll all just have to wait. Luckily, Kylearan has already emailed me the Adv 3 results, so I can work on the page even if I have nowhere to post it just yet.

 

[Morred]

Hi there, I was thinking about a possible new SG, but I wanted to see how much interest there was.

Otto von Bismarck's One of a Kind Military Museum

Difficulty Level: Up for debate
Map: Standard, Continents
Civ: Bismarck of Germany
Variant Rules: Now for the fun part, Bismarck wants to record all the achievements of his mighty military, so he creates a military museum! Every unit ever created has a spot in the museum! This means that units can never be deleted or upgrading, and if one is killed, we must train a new one immediately, if the unit is obsolete, we just have to make sure it doesn't die.
The other part of this variant is to do with the 'one of a kind' part, this means we can only build one type of each unit at a time, then we have to keep it. That means only one archer, one warrior, one scout, one panzer.

Any takers?

 

[Drasca]

Tokugawa has escaped RB10 to a new land, where new seas await him. Defeat on land has turned him toward ruling the sea, and raiding other civs from his galleys.

We are pirates! We have no love of exploring by land, the sea calls us, beckons us! This SG is for the warmonger in us, and continue the mighty tradition of sea-faring pirating.

Leader: Tokugawa
Map: Maze, One plot wide
Size: Standard (negotiable)
Difficulty: Emperor
Victory Conditions open*: Conquest, Diplomacy, Space
Enemy civs: Must include Isabella, to show we have surpassed her victory in the Elitist Hegemony RB10. Catherine and Elizabeth might also make a reappearance. 2-4 other mystery Civs are also on the horizon.

Variant rules: Land Units may only attack from Galleys, and other troop ships.

This means early city assaults won't be easy. Effectively our str is modified by -50% for the amphibious assault penalty at all times. We'll still be able to land units, pillage, and bombard, but we won't be able to assault cities from land without penalty until the amphibious combat promotion.

*About victory conditions: Time is not included because I expect space race to be the driving time factor. 1900 and and above is typical for a space race victory, and if we're able to drive our enemy's technological factor down beforehand, then we should be well on our way to conquest victory.

However, Space is not the victory we desire. We should have conquest and if we particularly like an ally, backdoor domination via diplomacy.

Roster:
1. Liq
2. S.ilver
3. Scowler
4. D'oh. Forgot to put myself in. Drasca.

YARRR!

 

[Liquidated]

cor guess I didn;t need to jump in here so fast.

I need to run a few maps to see just how maze like these mazes are and figure out the restictions.

Units outside cultural borders must attack from Galleys. These units may not attack from a land tile.

Care to flesh this out a bit more for the slower members of the audience?

whose borders? I mean I understand the no attacks from land but that phrase doesn;t really make too much sense to me yet!

I need to brush up on my "how to talk like a pirate" voice.

wow what a difference between 1 and 2 plot maze maps. I love the idea of a sutibly sized single plot maze map with toku selfimposed closed borders, no tech trade option checked. Number of civs dependant on map size but aggresive by checked option. Thinking this needs to be Emperor level to provide a decent challenge though.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Drasca]

The difficulty scales geometrically as the map size increases, but I'm up for Emp if we turn off spaceship and time victories. At higher difficulties and sizes, you just begin to run out of time to conquer.

I put in that clause because I thought it might be necessary for self defense. It isn't. I'm going to remove it since we can counter-attack from 1-2 plot maze maps via galleys at all times.


You can talk like any kind of pirate you want. Some were cultured, but all were merciless when they desired.

I love the idea of a sutibly sized single plot maze map with toku selfimposed closed borders

What do you mean by closed borders? Other than no trades, and no open ... ah.

Still, if we're in always war, we only be crossing hostile territory, and we'll be boxed in in oddball ways due to the 2 plot maze, BUT since we have to attack from galleys, or blockade since we can't attack from land tiles. That makes manuevers interesting.

 

[Liquidated]

I'm thinking drop always war. The main problem is that the hard option is for player only, making the computer gang up. Without a special option, the soft runs into prombelmaic issues like weariness.

All in all, imo just skip always war and have like sirian beg soren for a usable always global war hard option.


closed borders meaning no opening of borders by diplo.


There's a HUGE difference between single and double plot mazes... the single plot is really a nightmarish maze of insane complexity, while 2 plot is drastically simpler.

The main problem with 2 plot is that this attack from sea thing will make cities on the opposite side of the land be artificially cut off.


Also with single plot, cities act as a gate making some locations higly strategic in nature.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Griselda]

Always war wasn't designed to be balanced. It was originally created by people looking to have the additional challenge of the AI always ganging up on the player.

Liquidated, I must say that I often have a hard time understanding what it is you're trying to say in your posts because of your posting style. In this case, I'm pretty sure that I responsed to what you were trying to say, but I could be mistaken.

I'm far from the neatest typographer in the world, especially when I'm in a rush to get a turn posted (heh, I was temporarily even the Queen of Typos a few weeks ago!), but I do want to make sure that I'm addressing the content of what you're trying to say, rather than what I think you're trying to say.

 

[Liquidated]

haha goofed up on cough syrup is only mildly exaggerated gris... Liq not only abuses the third person randomly but I also create my own manner of language for each gene I inhabit.

Yes if you want a taste of the horror that is liq, just check out one of my moo posts in the other games forum. over the 15 odd years of playing that game I've delevoped my own vocabulary for that classic.

Regardless, I never take posts as insults other than sheer trolls, which this board is strangely absent of. Liq is pretty much a self-contained ego in that sense.

As for always war most assume at first blush that the option makes all civs attack all other civs.

Take for example, no trades. The no trades option effects all civs AI and player.

The way Civ4 codes always war is world against the player. That is merely one way of translating the option and since it's sorens child he is completely 100% no kidding, entitled to do so honest! liq is NOT trying to bash always war as it is now.

Liq's problem with the current setup is that it really taints the overall game much like too much curry kills the taste of the rest of your meal . There's really not too much else you can add to an always war game to change the overall tempo other than limiting civs, using novel maps, lowering game difficulty. The option sinply overpowers the other options in civ makeing one AW game much like the next.

On the other hand, I'd love to see a coded 'always global war' where all civs are at war with eachother unless they are placed on a team with another civ.

Why a hard option one may ask? Well as you very well know, civ4 punishes warmongers in new and exciting ways!
The list of penalties is not only legion but is subtle as well as overt.


a partial list..
Units built are money that's not going into the economy and they drain the economy just existing in many cases.

The war civics are costly to run, not only in terms of outright cost, but in that they replace other builder civics. Take say theo, you are missing out on serveral very powerful civics like organized rel and pac when you choose this really nice boost to the military.

War techs and peace techs run off fairly seperate tech paths. To be a warmonger, you need to skip/delay many bread and butter techs. The bread and butter techs offer up enough in the way of defender units so the builders can still hold what they built.

A more subtle hinderance to the would be warmonger is built into he aggresive trait. Agressive doesn't help the early game defender units like archers and xbows. This is a great way to limit the power of the leadership trait as it hinders the khans' ability to hold what they gain. Dove tail that with many of the agressive civs that have UU's unable to get the free combat one promotion...

Also, premature expansion in civ4 is painful painful. grow too fast and most of your economy is being used to support what you already have.


To all that balancing is the crowning CIV4 roadbump; War wearinesss. Any protacted war accrues grevious war related unhappys in every town. the higher the difficulty, the less free happys the player gets and the quicker the war drags down one's own cities. Blessed be Soren for allowying a war to bring a civ to it's own knees, even when a single enemy never crosses into its cultural borders.

The always war options removes this penalty much like when you check single city, the 2x nation wonder restriction is removed.

That little sticker is what makes a home grown AW game a dud if it's not set to a really small map, war weariness alone will kill the player before the AI player need care.

To civ4's credit, it's most likely trivial to mod such a setting but well, a mod is not the same as an ingame option that anyone playing the game can try out, never looking online.

So that's the never short answer to my post before. prolly serves to confuse more than the first post did, but np!I can explain this one as well!!!!




Cheers!
-Liq

 

[oldbustedjorn]

Isn't there a way through custom teams or the world builder to set diplomacy for each civ before they start and lock them there? I'm sure it can be done in world builder. An SG group could have a third-part enter world builder and set diplomacy and I think there is an option to disallow changing diplo? I could be wrong.

Of course, it may be terrible unbalanced, but it would be interesting.

 

[Griselda]

Well, the part that I wasn't getting was whether you were unhappy about Always War in general, or whether you didn't think it was a good choice for that particular game. I responded as if you were unahppy with AW in general (since it's NOT the right choice for every game!), and it sounds like I hit the mark.

I guess my point is that Always War has been a mainstay of RB gameplay since before it was ever hardcoded into the game with CIV. The term "always war" was defined before it was put into Civilization IV. Soren didn't invent it. Although, rather than "against the player", I tend to think of it as "the player against all other civs".

Yes, it does have its limitations, and there are plenty of situations where it wouldn't be appropriate or fun to play always war. But, the way that it's defined in the game is the way that we've been playing it right here at RB for *years*, even with all of the challenges that you listed.

If you don't like always war, and never want to play it, I'm fine with that. You can say that all day long. Honest. But, when you talk about how always war itself is coded into the game, that's when I take exception to what you're saying.

That said, I'm all in favor of more options. Always Global War sounds like it would be fun to play from time to time too. But, clearly it wouldn't be the same challenge that the current always war is. And at RB, we like challenges. The current variants we've been playing are nothing like the loopy ones you're sure to see once the game's been out for a while!

 

[Sirian]

The current variants we've been playing are nothing like the loopy ones you're sure to see once the game's been out for a while!

Yes, and "a while" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[LKendter]

The current variants we've been playing are nothing like the loopy ones you're sure to see once the game's been out for a while!

That is what has been really surprising me with Civ4. It seems like the variant ideas came out of the woods a lot faster then they did in Civ3. There already seems to be an "I don't want to play a vanilla game" crowd developing.